Wil Smith  0:03  
Hello, Wil Smith, and welcome to The Authentic Gay Man Podcast. I'm anxious to hear your story.

Thank you.

I'm glad to have you today. And you're in. Are you in San Francisco? Is that correct?

Yes.

Awesome. So just so the listeners know, you and I became acquainted, I guess it's been a couple of years ago now at least maybe a little bit longer during the pandemic, and a large online gay group. And that's how we became acquainted. And we don't know each other well. So today, I'm going to get to experience wills story, just like you guys will. So well, first off, what does it mean to you to be an authentic gay man? How would you define that?

I see it as someone who just tells the truth. Beautiful, authentic authenticity to me, to me means being honest. Wonderful. Anything else? That's it. Okay, perfect. Well,

you know, what we're here to do to get today is to hear your story and find out, you know, what, what's, what's been your biggest challenge in life that you have had to overcome, or even maybe, possibly, are still in the process of overcoming

overcoming my sexuality, which is never going to happen. I think the biggest roadblock in my life has been being gay. And

when you say overcoming sexuality, I mean, that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, I guess some people might think that means actually about the sexual aspect of it. Others might think it might be the social aspect of it. What is what does that mean to you?

It meant the social aspect, what people in society think and feel and do to people who are gay.

So tell me a little bit. I mean, was that what how old? were

you when you came out? Well, well, hands on, it depends on how you do. It depends on how you define it. Because I was actually in graduate school when I actually came out. So I was in my, my late 20s.

But you know, you had you known for a long time that you were going to yours

for years. I knew. Yeah. Okay. Well,

what, what has been hard about that? The social aspect of it, I know, you know, that you said the way the way people are. And then you did make the comment that you didn't think that it was fully ever going to happen that you were going to never, never get to the other side. I'd love to know more about

that. Well, ever since I was a kid, I thought about being a teacher. And that's what I wanted to be. But I was afraid that my sexuality would keep me from doing that, because I didn't think society would accept me as a teacher. This is my young mind thinking this.

And so are you still there?

Yes, there's a little bit of lag on the video. The audio is doing great. There's a little bit of lag on the video. Okay.

So I, I just needed to get comfortable with myself. I guess it's the first step I needed to get comfortable with myself and I, I think I am comfortable with myself now.

And what would you say enabled you to come to that place of comfort will?

Just determination.

And do you feel like you did that all on your own was or was there support along the way?

There was really very little support. Very little. I got some support. When I was in graduate school right before I came out, I went into therapy. And my therapist helped me to go through the coming out process. So

keep going tell me a little bit more about that process.

Well, I'm right. There is no Not that much to tell really. I, I just went into therapy. And I found that it helps me to deal with the fact that I was gay. Okay,

once you felt like you were in a place of able to accept it.

what came next? Well, I had decided when I was a child, that when I decided I wanted to be a teacher, and that I would not be accepted as a teacher, because I was gay. I decided that I should be a doctor, because doctors are respected. And so I decided to be pre med. And so I went to college, and I went to pre med, and I went to medical school. Because I was afraid of being a gay teacher.

And I get I get the way, you're saying that I kind of get that maybe the medical field wasn't really what you really want to do.

But I did it for two years, I did two years of medical school. And then I gave up on it and went to work for a pharmaceutical company. And what what made

you make that shift what made you decide not to complete your your medical journey,

because I hated it, I really hated it. There were a lot of things I didn't like about medical school. One of them is the difference between Graduate School and Professional School, which is, in one hand, you get to study what you want. And then the other hand, you have to study what you're told. So I didn't like the fact that I had to do what I was being told and I wanted

pharmaceutical company, and during the time that I was employed in, I actually spent my entire career in the pharmaceutical industry. And while I was at SmithKline, I, I went back to graduate school to get my PhD. And that's what I did. And so

are you. Are you still in the pharmaceutical industry?

No, I'm not. Sorry, you retired. I'm retired from pharmaceuticals. And as a retiree, I'm working part time as a substitute. Substitute Teacher. Hmm.

So in the it came full circle, and you actually got to do what you had wanted to do all along?

That's right. I'm happy about that.

So how long have you been substitute teaching? For five years? Oh, and as a substitute? Is there a lot of work? I don't really know how that I mean, I've heard of it. And I've known people that were substitutes. But is it something that you just get to do occasionally, or you called on quite frequently?

Well, I get to pick which days I want to work, and, and I get to pick whether I will accept the assignment or not. So it's, it's really, I can make up my own schedule. And that's what I like about it. There's a certain minimum number of days that you have to substitute per year to continue doing it. But other than that, I, I pick and choose which schools and which positions. Okay.

So how has that played in your growth and development as as a gay man?

substitute teaching?

Well, it's part of your journey, right?

Yes, it's part of my journey. And I don't really make any connection between being gay and being a substitute teacher, because I don't see that one has anything to do with the other.

Well, do you not come across situations where you have students that are that are in the LGBTQ community?

No, I substitute kindergarten. Oh, okay.

So they're not that far along in their development yet.

Right. Okay. Well, it's my soul and that's why I do it. Okay. So,

tell me a little bit more about you said at the very beginning that you didn't know if you were ever going to get, you know, beyond the challenge. Jim part of being a gay man. Tell me a little bit more about that, if you will.

Well, because the homophobia had gotten so bad. I'm from the East Coast from Pennsylvania, and where I lived at then. There was a lot of homophobia, and it really freaked me out. And is that?

Okay, so now now you're on the on the West Coast, a totally different experience.

Right? Right. And I feel better about everything. Now that I'm here, because that's the reason I moved to San Francisco was to avoid homophobia.

And how long ago was that?

When I went to how long ago was what, when you move to San Francisco? Oh, was 2001. Okay. I had I took a job with a biotechnology company in San Francisco. Because I wanted to move to San Francisco because I wanted to escape homophobia as best I could. That's why I live here.

And how how did that? How did that move? Change? Did it change your life? Or what was that like?

Well, to be honest, Maddox, there was a problem with that move. And the problem was that I was a drug addict. I was addicted to cocaine. And I had gotten addicted to cocaine when I lived in Philadelphia. And I, I, I had gotten sick with AIDS. And I was in the hospital with with MAC, which is mycobacterium Avium, which is an opportunistic infection, which I had twice. And, um, I think I just got myself off track. Sorry. That's okay. I moved to San Francisco, because I wanted to live in San Francisco, not so much because I wanted to work for Genentech. But I did work there. And I worked in a very in a high level management position, which I did for four years. And I was addicted to cocaine.

And would you say that the cocaine addiction had anything to do with the challenges of being gay?

I think so. I think

and is that something of the past now?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I've been clean for over eight years now. And

what what didn't? I mean, I know that, you know, there are people that get cleaned. And then there are people that never do what what was the thing that enabled you to, to make that shift in life and to stay clean?

Oh, I just knew that it was necessary. I just knew that it was absolutely necessary that I get off the drugs and and be clean. And I went into rehab with this philosophy.

Well, that's a pretty, pretty strong constitution to be able to go in and just make that life life change. How did how did getting clean affect your life as a gay man?

Um, well, it made me realize that sex isn't as important as it was cracked up to be. For one thing

I, I actually became celibate after after rehab. So I've been celibate for the past eight years. And my sexual behavior on drugs was out of this world. So something had to change. And it did. And now I'm happy.

Wow, that's a pretty big declaration to make to you now. Yeah. Tell me Tell me a little bit more about the celibacy. Do you see this as a lifelong thing or something that you felt you needed to do to stay clean? Is there is there a point where you think you might like to, you know, not necessarily go crazy and wild but be Be a sexual creature once again,

I'm open to becoming sexual again, if God puts it in my path, but I'm not going out of my way to find it.

I understand I've walked in those shoes. I can say that I experienced some of my life and celibacy. But it wasn't necessarily by choice. I mean, it depends on how you look at it, you know, I decided that I didn't want to just have random sex with anybody. So it was by choice. But in the other regard, you know, if I met somebody, your head, a boyfriend or a partner, then there would have been no celibacy. And it did come to an end about eight months ago when I met somebody and got in a relationship. But I had gone for some years being celibate because I just didn't have any interest in meaningless sex any longer. I was holding out wanting to have some meaning in my life.

Well, to tell you the truth, I had gotten into escorts when I was using drugs, and my entire sex life consisted of escorts. And I reached a point where it was just out of control. I bet that was expensive. It was, but I made a lot of money when I was in my position at the at the biotechnology company. So it didn't bother me that it was expensive. Wow.

Tell me more about that. What what? This is kind of a new story to me. And I'm, I'm sure it may be to some of the listeners as well. Tell me a little bit more about how that got started, and how you how it what it was like and how you broke away from

it? Well, it started with me, feeling totally lost about how to have a deal with someone, and not getting asked out for a date, and being anxious about my sexuality and the fact that I wasn't having sex, but I wanted to. So that's what led me to the escorts. And the fact, the fact also is that there's a control issue involved in, in sex for me, and I have a fear of being the submissive one, and being taken advantage of and abused or hurt. So

I lost my point. The point I was trying to make I just ran off track. Alright.

Well, you were you were talking about it being a control issue.

Oh, yeah. If I pay, I can control what happens. Yes. That makes perfect sense. So

how long did that period last?

Oh, it lasted for years. I mean, I moved to San Francisco in 2001. And let's see. It lasted all except for the last eight years, from 2001 until eight years ago. 2015 was eight years ago. So that was 14 years. And do you think that

that was that play in any role? I mean, you know, when we move away from one addiction, oftentimes we will form another addiction. Do you think that was at play in what you were experiencing?

Well, what do you mean? Do you mean the celibacy as another addiction?

Well, no, actually, the sex with the escorts perhaps is an addiction.

Oh, yeah, it was it was but it's an understandable addiction, in my case, because of all the times that I was seeking sex and didn't find it.

Well, you know, I think there is a whole set up the population that I think sex workers have their place, you know, I'm certainly not going to be in judgment or poopoo on that. I watched a movie recently called Good luck to you Leo Grande. That was one of the best movies I've ever seen about a sex worker. I highly recommend it. But it opened my eyes to the whole industry, and gave me a very different perspective of, you know, perhaps what the sex worker industry is like, I think that they play an important role in our society. And I personally think that sex work should should be legal. If it were up to me who if we were voting on it, I would vote to make it legal and regulated and have it be, you know, something that's above the line rather than below the line?

I agree with you. I guess I think

there are people that there's some aspect of it that can even be downright therapeutic for some people just depends on, you know, how you're going about it? Was it when you decided that that wasn't really what you needed to do any longer? Was that? How was that to move away from that?

To move away from the escorts? Yes. Um, well, once I went to rehab, I've lost the, the urge to do that. I don't know what happened to it. I even went into therapy back in 2015, or 16th. To find out why I haven't restored my sexual interests. There was no libido. And I think it had to do with shame. Oh, tell

me a little bit more about that. Shame is such a universal thing that we all experience at some point in life, some more than others. But let's unpack a little bit of that, because I know that's a very valid conversation.

Well, because I went to college and like, went to medical school and like, went to graduate school, but I felt like there was a lot to be expected from me. And that was some pressure.

So you, if I'm understanding correctly, are you saying that there was like a standard that you felt like you needed to live up to as a result of your, what you went through in your education? Is that am I understanding correctly?

Yes, I expected there to be a standard that I should be held to that I wasn't meeting.

So there was this, you know, I'm imagining a conversation in your head where you're thinking, wow, I've got all these degrees. I shouldn't

be with an escort. Well, I felt I shouldn't have had to leave my job because because of drugs.

You know, because that's, that's what happened. I. I got caught by one of the executives at Genentech. I was buying drugs off the street, and I got caught by an executive from my company. And that's why I no longer there. Wow, that had to be tough. It was, it was, was very tough, because here I am in San Francisco all by myself. And my job is gone.

Well, you know, sometimes that's the wake up call we need. And that's perhaps how you ended up in rehab getting clean? Yeah, I think you're right. You know, oftentimes, when there's addiction involves the addict has to bottom out before they can begin to come back from it. I've certainly heard countless stories about that. Yeah, well, what was your experience?

My bottom experience, I mean, my bottoming out experience. Uh huh. Um, let's see. Well, I was starting to run out of money, which was one important consideration. In fact, it was probably the primary consideration in going through rehab was that I'm not going to be able to afford this drug addiction. And it was a reality check. Because I couldn't go on spending all that money on escorts and drugs. Yeah. So I did it until it ran out. And I knew full well, that by the time it runs out, I was going to be in rehab. That was a preordained. I mean, I knew that going in that I was going to do it until I couldn't do it anymore. And then I was going to give up on it. I knew that I have these insights sometimes. But you had

to completely run out of money in order to get to that point.

Yes, yes. The money enable me. Yeah. Yeah, I can now you can say, well, the money enabled me. So what's happening now? Well, now I have money, but I'm not doing drugs. So I can't explain why I'm not. It's just that I'm in my right mind now.

Well, yeah, it sounds like you got to the other side of it. Yeah. Whatever, whatever was going on there. I mean, I'd rehab includes a pretty fair amount of therapy, doesn't it?

Um, how do you mean? Well, I

mean, I've never been in rehab. But the way they depicted in films is that while you're in rehab, you're working with counselors and therapists and trying to work through all of the reasons that you had the desire to do the drugs to begin with.

And usually that's in a group setting. It's group therapy. It's not one on one. Yes.

And I know that group therapy can be really powerful. Sometimes that shared experience can be really powerful.

Uh, huh. Yeah,

well tell tell them. Tell me a little bit about life today. You're free of the addictions. you've recovered financially? What would you say today is holding you back?

You know,

you made that comment that you didn't know if you'd ever get to the other side of the challenge of being gay? What's keeping you in that challenge place?

The fact that homophobia still exists, and I can't get rid of it. Well, this is true. So go ahead. I've been working as an advocate in my spare time, helping LGBT people in Africa who are in countries in which homosexuality is illegal or punishable by death, or some, for example, Uganda, which is a lot of the people that I'm working with are from Uganda. And, as you probably know, there's a new law that's just been passed in Uganda, that homosexuality is punishable by death. And I'm helping these people. Because they're LGBT and they're being discriminated against, because they're LGBT. And so I'm working with a group of Ugandans who live in Kenya, these people that left Uganda because of discrimination and went to Kenya only to find out that it's not legally discriminatory, but it still is discriminatory. Yes. Yes,

who knows if we'll ever fully overcome that. Right? Do you? Do you find will in just everyday life, you live in San Francisco in everyday life, when you're just out and about living life? Do you run a run up against real obvious discrimination?

No, I don't. That's why I wanted to live here. Got it? Well, so help me understand

why you still consider yourself in the midst of the challenge.

Because it's been with me so so much of my life, that it's hard to let go of. Ah, so part of me. Ah, okay. Got it.

Well, I'm sure there's some listeners that can relate to that. I can't imagine that there's not. So what's the plan to move forward? I mean, you still have a pretty fair amount of life left. What's the is there the thought that you will ever be free of that burden.

I think there is a chance that I will be free of the burden of being gay, which it is a burden. But it's also an opportunity because most problems or opportunities Yes. And I'm 65 years old now. And so even if I had stayed in biotechnology, I would have retired by now. So I don't know, if I'll ever get to the point where I jumped over that last hurdle. I hope I do. What I'm not sure.

What do you think would need to happen for that to be able to jump over

that last hurdle?

Yes, except I feel that I've gained acceptance.

Somewhere, the acceptance by whom?

Everybody.

I think that's a

valid point. And it's an important thing, we all need to feel a sense of acceptance. You know, I just want to toss in my, my experience. I think for me, that came. I think, for me, I had spent many years looking for that outside of myself, looking for the SEC, acceptance of others. And there was a point when I really realized that what I had been searching for all along, wasn't out there, it wasn't in somebody else. It was inside of me, it was my own self, self acceptance. And I, and when I fully embraced that, and accepted myself, it felt like all of that external stuff just went away. I mean, I'm not ever in a sitting setting where

I feel discriminated against or

judged, or I don't even live in a place that's nearly as liberal as where you live. I'm in Dallas, Texas. And although it's a big metropolitan city, it's, it's the middle of the Bible Belt. And it's the middle of I mean, it's a red state, red state, Dallas is blue, but it's in a red state. And I don't ever run India in into that, and I and the only thing that I've been able to conclude is that when I stepped into that place of self acceptance, it set an example and the rest of the world followed. I can't figure out any other any other explanation. In other words, that that feeling of being accepted, hinged on my ability to step into self acceptance.

How does that? Well, the hard thing is that my whole life has been the result of non self acceptance. If I had expected myself long ago, and a lot of things that happened wouldn't have happened. I

get it completely. So you're you're there, you understand, you get that it's hinging on your own self acceptance?

Yes. Yes, I get that. But I can't seem to do much about it. Well, don't give up my friend.

There is there's a light at the end of the tunnel. Okay. Don't Don't give up. You know, I from like, like I say, from my own experience, if you keep working at it, and get the support that you need, you know, that would be my words of wisdom. We're not meant to do it alone. We're not meant to do life alone. And, you know, we're at a time period in life where just like, sometimes you had to hire a sex worker to support you with that need. Sometimes it's not going to be a close friend or a family member, that it's going to help us through that. Sometimes it's going to be a therapist or a coach. And that's okay. You know, I don't ever feel like I just don't ever feel like it's a negative thing to just say, Yeah, I work with a therapist, or I work with a coach. I'm amazed at how many people think they'll be judged by that or think that they must be crazy. If they're getting help. I don't see it that way

at all. I don't see it that way either. I just wonder if I'm going to make it

I think that's largely up to you. Yeah. That's largely up to you, I, you know, the things, I just want to reflect back to you will the big changes that you've made in your life and the things that you've overcome, you did that with whatever you found inside of you. You found whatever you needed inside of you to move away from drug addiction, you found whatever you needed inside of you to move away from sex worker addiction, or escort addiction. And sometimes I think that we get addicted to a certain way of being we get in a rut of living from this place of believing that we're surrounded by homophobic people or that we can't fully embrace ourselves and live openly and honestly. And you have, you've demonstrated that you have everything inside of you that you need to overcome this.

Well, thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I believe

I believe you do. I fully believe that you have everything inside of you that you need to live openly, and honestly, I, you know, I don't even I get that there's homophobia out there. And I read and hear stories about it. I don't ever experience it,

had listed bias and listed myself at the school district as being LGBT. That was my way of coming out in my work life. You know, I,

I think that's beautiful. That in and of itself is a form of activism. I've said for many years, one of the most powerful forms of activism that we can do, as LGBTQ people, is to merely live our lives openly and honestly, for all to see. I'm not talking about shoving our sexuality down other people's throats. I'm just talking about just living my life as openly and honestly as any straight person would.

Wouldn't that be great?

It's, it's wonderful. I mean, I'm living it. I, you know, when I'm in public, I hold hands with my boyfriend. We're affectionate with each other in public. Nobody ever I there's never ever a problem any disparaging. Occasionally, somebody will look at us a little bit, but I don't always think that's a bad thing. You know, we're doing something that's still kind of not a normal thing. You don't see a lot of that. So sometimes they're, you know, we're, they're caught off guard, boyfriend and I were walking through a crowded airport about three weeks ago. And there's a woman standing near the bathroom. In that unit, we're walking down the, you know, the long concourse towards the gate. And she's butts in with her luggage. And we're holding hands as we walk through the airport. It's a very big crowded airport. And she looks up, and she sees us. And she says,

Oh, my God,

like it shocked her to see us holding hands. And then she realized that she had said, Oh, my god out loud. And she said, Hey, guys, you know, trying to kind of backpedal a little bit. We laughed all the way to our gate. It was hysterical. But I didn't get that that was a homophobic thing. I got that she's just wasn't maybe used to seem to man hold hands. Who knows what part of the country she's from being in an airport. It looked like it surprised her and and then as soon as she got past the surprise, she greeted us.

That was nice. But

we everywhere we go. We went to Guatemala, we walked. We walked all over Guatemala,

holding hands. Never be afraid to do I'd be afraid to do that in another country.

You know, we asked around a little bit and kind of tested the waters to see and everybody said, you know, you shouldn't have any problem. It's probably pretty safe. People didn't even look at us funny. They're okay. Not even a little bit. It was. You know, I just made a point at one point that I was just going to live my life exactly the way I would if I were heterosexual. And if I were heterosexual, I would hold the wife's hand. I'd hold the girlfriend's hand. I would give Were a little peck on the cheek it on the street corner or I'd give her an embrace or walk with my arm around her. If I'm if I would do it with a woman, then I have the right to do it with a with a man. I'm on a little bit of a soapbox. But I will say that I believe that if we're ever going to have equal rights, we have to take them. Nobody's going to hand them to us, we have to take the rights that we want. And so that's what I do. I lead my life the way I would if I were a straight man.

Okay, what do you think? I think that you probably should be able to live your life as you choose to.

It's it's been an incredible gift that I've given myself, if you'd have told me a few years ago that I would be able to walk the streets anywhere that I would go. Now certainly if we go into some of those countries where it's punishable by death, we wouldn't take that risk. Right. But if you would have told me that there would have been a time when I would have a been able to marry another man and be been able to show open affection on the in the public streets, I would not have believed it. And yet here I am living it. And I'm 66. Okay.

What's your next step?

Well, in this quest to overcome, not global homophobia, but the way you relate to homophobia, what's next for you?

Well, I think one step is going to be accepting the fact that homophobia exists and that you cannot always pack up and move away from it.

I think you're spot on.

What else? That's going to be something that has to be dealt with. And I don't I don't think that I'm destined to suffer my whole life long. I think maybe a lot a large part of the suffering ended when I stopped having sex. Because in a way, I'm not really gay anymore. In a way, in a way

in interesting thought provoking.

Well, it any

anything else about your story you'd like to add?

Well, I guess I just need to figure out which direction to go forward. And I'm not sure what that direction is.

Well, that's the part where sometimes help comes in.

Mm hmm.

You know, sometimes we can't see what we can't see. So given your experience, your story and your experience will. And having done some of the ways that you've done, you know, sometimes we wouldn't change a thing, sometimes we would change a lot. What, what wisdom would you share with the listeners, if they were

in a place

similar to where you are, where they were dealing with homophobia and or maybe not dealing with it? So well? What What wisdom would you

share? Um, well, I know that my, my HIV did no support for my homophobia. I mean, if that made any sense. I just mean that I'm getting AIDS was another difficulty that I had to deal with. And my apprehension about being gay. Yes, and it did not help. But I think your question was, What am I going to do going forward right? Well, or what what

wisdom would you like to leave the listener with if they're, if you let's say we've got some younger listeners that are experiencing what you've experienced in your life? What words of wisdom or advice would you give?

I would give the advice of don't poop all over yourself because of some mistake you made. I think that's the biggest advice I could give is don't be too hard on yourself and be forgiving. In fact, that is a good message. The message of forgiveness of self. Yes, is extremely.

Absolutely. And that's a universal message. Everybody needs to hear that. I don't I, I know a few people in my life that aren't at least at times hard on themselves. I've worked on it for years and years, and there's still times when I am unnecessarily hard on myself. It's a hard thing.

That's the reason I think I'm not having sex is because of because of that. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think your words of wisdom are brilliant, you know, self forgiveness and just cut yourself some slack. Don't I love the way you word it? Don't poop all over yourself. Right? Because you made some mistakes, because we do. It's beautiful. Thank you for that. Well, so are you ready for some rapid fire questions? Oh, sure. Okay, question number one. What has been the most difficult aspect of being a man of color? In the GBT Q community?

Um, well, I think the fact that being gay is a minority in itself. And white gay people are fighting for their rights at the same time as black people and gay people. Everybody's everybody is out for their rights. And sometimes as as, as we strive toward getting acceptance. I don't know how I can put this. I think that the fact that white gay people are striving for their rights at the same time, that it makes it difficult for for a person of color, who was also gay to see their way full. Got it? Does that make any sense? Um,

I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'm.

Well, it's like. It's like, if you have a group that is a minority, like gay people, and then you have another group that is a minority within a minority by black gay people, that they're going to have a harder time getting incorporated into the program. Yes, it's

a double whammy admit.

Yes, it is.

Yeah. And and, you know, the LGBT community is not really known for being the most accepting community on the planet. Exactly. That's

what I was trying to say, you know, there's

a, there's a fair amount of Judge judgment. We i It's amazing to me that we have been so judged. And we are so quick to dish it out. I don't understand that.

But I understand. And I expect it, and I've come to, you know, accept it. That's how people are. And,

yeah, you may be right, it may be something that never changes. Okay, so what stands in your way of having more and better relationships with other gay men?

Well, that's a hard question. Because I often have a competitive relationship when I meet a new gay man. I, I feel a sense of, I have to prove that I'm just as good as this person. Or I have to publish my right to be here.

I think you've answered that spectacularly. So if I'm hearing correctly, you're just saying it's this sense of competition that

stands in your way? Yeah. Wow. Wow.

Okay, final question. What matters most to you, and why?

What matters most?

I can't answer that question. I'm sorry. But what matters most to me? I guess what matters most to me is me and me getting the support that I need to live the life that I want to live.

Beautifully stated will. Beautifully stated. Thank you. All right, sir. This has been awesome. It's been an honor and uplift, Pope's honor and a privilege to have you on the podcast.

Thank you, Maddox, for sharing

your story. I know it's not always easy to share some of these things. And thank you for stepping up and you know, being an authentic gay man.

Well, thank you. I appreciate it. I thank you for your time as well.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai