Coach Maddox  0:03  
Hello, Roger Miller, it is so good to have you on the podcast today. I know just enough to know that I'm very excited about hearing your story. Welcome.

Roger Miller  0:15  
Thanks a lot Maddox. I'm, I'm thrilled to be here, I reached out to you after one of your recent episodes about how powerful that it had been, and how transformative it had been. In my life it was was starting to be transformative, I should say, and you offered to let me come on the podcast if I were interested, and I thought about it, and then I, I didn't think about it very long. And I said, Yes, I would be but I don't, I haven't listened to all your episodes, I'm, I've only been listening maybe six months or so. But I go back and pick up the old ones. I hadn't yet heard anybody's story who was quite like mine. And I thought it might be a nice addition to your catalogue of episodes,

Coach Maddox  1:13  
I am quite sure it's going to be an excellent addition, because I do not have anything that is even remotely like this so far. So I think it's going to be a treat for me. And for the listeners and I say trade in in in saying that it's going to provide a voice that opens a space for other men that might be in a similar situation that don't quite know how to navigate it. And that's what this is all about. So thank you so much for your willingness to come in and do this. So I guess my first question for you would be how do you define authentic gay man? What does that mean to you?

Roger Miller  2:03  
You get so many different answers on the podcast to that question. And they're all pretty terrific.

Coach Maddox  2:10  
They are aren't they amazingly so like every one of them are just spot on. And yet they're all completely different.

Roger Miller  2:16  
I, I didn't really think a lot about it in advance, but I think the short answer is that as an authentic game, man, I live my life as as honestly as humanly possible. And, and I always thought that I had been an honest person. And I had been, but there was that one piece of me that I had been deluding myself about for so so many years. And now that I've made that journey to being out, and to being fully disclosed to my still wife, and my children, my adult children, all my friends, even just in the past week, my brother who lives in a distant state who can, you know, is a I think I should describe him as an evangelical Christian. I was afraid of not being accepted, but I've just moved beyond that. And so this to be authentic is just be being myself. And that doesn't mean behaving badly. It means being me. And for me, that is being a good guy, a sober guy. I've been sober for over seven years now. And an out gay man. And I apologize for none of those things. My sobriety, or the fact that I'm attracted to other men. And I found such acceptance and love in the LGBTQ community. And this is at the age of 66. It's, I feel like I'm in the best part of my life yet.

Coach Maddox  4:23  
I hear it and I feel it as you say those words. You know, I'm very sensitive to energy and I can tell that you have already come to a place where you're owning who you are. Yeah, I think it's something that we as GBT Q men struggle with. I've interviewed men that have been out for ever and are still struggling with owning who they are. So I just want to say you know, my hat's off to you and Bravo. For you said you You started the coming out process, how long ago?

Roger Miller  5:04  
Three and a half years ago.

Coach Maddox  5:06  
And and you're already able to own it unapologetically that says a lot.

Roger Miller  5:14  
Yes, I, I'm not I'm not bashful about it at all. Actually, I had been in the pride parades before I came out, because my, my church is very LGBTQ affirming. It's a UU church. And I had been there before, and, but never, never celebrating my own identity. It was being an ally, and ally, my daughter is queer. And she'll be 40. late this summer, later on this summer, and, you know, I think some people may have interpreted some of my Facebook posts, and such as me being an ally to my daughter, as opposed to me just being out. And so I've had to clarify that for a few people, but it's all good. You know, when I, when I first got sober, and that's been seven and a half years ago, there's, there's so much shame involved with being an alcoholic, or drug addict or whatever. But my my problem was, was alcohol. That when you start that recovery process, the last thing that you want anybody to know, is that you went to treatment, or, you know, that you you're seeing a therapist, or you go to a support group or whatever, that's embarrassing, but over time, and thankfully, it didn't take very long there's such acceptance in the sober community, that it becomes just another label. You know, I, I have no problem, calling myself a recovering alcoholic. It's who I am. I'm also right handed, I have brown eyes, I'm five foot nine, etc. It's just, it's just a label. Similarly, that label of my sexual orientation which I had rejected, for so so long, did not accept it. Once I finally did, the level of healing is just so magnificent. You know, early in sobriety, when when you when you start to label yourself publicly as an alcoholic in recovery, there's so much strength in that. And there's so much weight that comes off of your shoulders. And it's the same thing with coming out. I mean, I'm not I'm preaching to the choir here, but my God, I mean, I, when I told the very first person, it was January, the third of 2020, it was my first ever therapy session. And I wasn't there to talk about recovery. I wasn't there to talk about PTSD, or depression, or any of the other issues that this particular therapist dealt with, directly. I she, you know, she wanted to know why I was there. And I said, because I'm gay. And I've, and you're the first person on this earth that I've ever told other than myself. And I need help figuring out now what, where do I go from here? And, you know, in hindsight, it really went pretty quickly. But when you're on the other side, looking at it seems ginormous. Such a ginormous problem.

Coach Maddox  9:20  
It is ginormous. And I think so many people who haven't walked in our shoes don't understand this, this common belief that we're lying to everybody, that we're trying to be somebody different than what we are and we're lying to everybody. And they don't stop to realize that we're lying to ourselves, you know, it's not like we have a full grasp on it and we're lying to everybody else. That's secondary. You know, we're lying to ourselves because we're not ready to face the truth.

Roger Miller  9:55  
The the episode that I think was When the bright light came on to me, and I should say that, you know, when I started coming out, I was 62 years old, kind of a late bloomer.

But I, we were in, I was installing a brand new smart television, downstairs where I watch TV with my wife, and I never had a smart TV. And this was at the end of 2019. And once that was all set up, then I came to realize that it was going to be connected to Netflix, and YouTube. And I was just stricken with horror, because my wife might immediately find out that I've been watching LGBTQ movies on Netflix, Oh, the horror. Or that I might like to watch college wrestlers, you know, on YouTube, whatever. You know what, none of this was porn, although, you know, I'd certainly done enough of that on my on my computer. But that that idea of her seeing that information on the television just terrified me. And I went, as soon as I could, I went running upstairs to log into all my accounts, and flush all of the browsing history and all of my favorites on Netflix and all the things that I had queued up that I wanted to watch. I deleted it all. And I was just thinking that this is ridiculous. You're a 62 year old man. And in your sobriety, you are endeavouring to live a rigorously honest life. This does not compute. And this has to end.

Coach Maddox  12:03  
Well, you know, you spoke earlier about shame. And I think that's what's what you're describing right now. The thought that she would find your playlist, or the movies you've been watching, just brought up? I would imagine intense shame. 

Roger Miller  12:21  
Absolutely.

Coach Maddox  12:23  
I would very much if you don't mind. Roger, I'd like to unpack a little bit of that. I think it's a very valid topic. Because I'm, I'm getting the gist that you initially experienced a great deal of shame. But you no longer experience that shame. You've gone from point A extreme shame, to no shame concerning your sexuality.

Roger Miller  12:50  
Right? 

Coach Maddox  12:54  
How did you do that? What What were the things that you had to think? Or the who did you have to be? Or what did you have to do to get to the other side of that?

Roger Miller  13:12  
I think the first thing that came to mind is by it's a learning process that doesn't it's not like throwing a switch, of course. But it was a process of being with other men, like myself, who were gay as I am, or by which I am not gay or bi and yet married to women and heterosexual marriages. I honestly didn't know that there was such a thing. You know, I was so ignorant about that. And very early on yet, probably within the first month or two, I found a local support group here in my home in my, my hometown, and, and it was a small group of gay and bi men who are married to women. And we met for I went to a few meetings. And this all happened right before COVID Which I still joke about because I waited to come out of the closet until just before we all went inside our houses and locked the door for two years. So I was trying to come out. But being in that space with other men, and here and finding out that this is common and that we have a lot of the same issues. That helped that led me to another much bigger group called husbands out to wives that has hundreds and hundreds of members throughout the US and the world that are Are men in mixed orientation marriages? They are. There are any number of types of marriages. I mean, some of them are monogamous. Some of them are open loop, closed loop, you name it, some of the some of the men have boyfriends. And once I found them, it was very helpful to just find out that I'm not alone, which is the same thing that I found out when I started getting sober. Because when when you start that journey, you think that you're the only one you think you're the only one who's hiding bottles and empty cans, and, and all the things that people with that issue go to hide the shame that they feel about their drinking. And then then when you get on the road to recovery, you find out that we all did that. You're not alone. And so joining other men who are on this journey has been so helpful for me to expedite the amount of time that is taken to get out and open. And in I went to a concert last December in a very queer friendly place. And I felt no problem at all with holding the hand of the guy that I was with that evening in a very public space.

Coach Maddox  16:37  
That's beautiful. My partner and I hold hands everywhere we go. Everywhere we go. Why not? Yeah, why not? So am I hearing you say then that one aspect, one thing that helped you move through the shame was just to do what you needed to do to discover and find out that you weren't alone. Right, that there were others that were in the same boat wearing the same shoes.

Roger Miller  17:15  
That's true. And and, and the thing that that I liked about these guys that I met in the local group, and in how the husband's out to wife's group is that these guys are not on the DL. at all, they are they are they are open and honest. And that that was the main issue that was driving my shame was that that I was lying about this part of myself that I've been covering up all those years.

Coach Maddox  17:56  
That's a valid point point. So part of the the coming through the the shame was just a step into a more honest place in your life than in other words, I guess I'm hearing you say that some of the shame was generated by being dishonest about who you

are. Right. And it's taken.

Roger Miller  18:26  
It took some time with my second therapist, who the first one was not gay, but the second one that I work with Currently, he is a gay man. And he's been very helpful to show the flashlight on all of my hetero normative thinking that had held me captive for so long. I am like all of us. I'm a product of the time and space in which I was raised. For me, I was born in the you know, late 50s Out in the great plains age. Yeah, I'm 66

Coach Maddox  19:17  
I'm 66 as well.

Roger Miller  19:19  
I never knew a gay person. I've heard it referred to on me, I've heard it on one of the podcast. I never heard it before purity, culture, purity culture 1.0 2.0. But when they describe purity culture, that's what I grew up with. I did not get the the restrictions and the shame of many of the people that I knew who grew up in, in Roman Catholic households, but nevertheless my my family was a conservative Protestant Family where, as I had always heard men have sex with women and women have sex with men. And they only do that on their wedding night. Not about procreation. Yeah. And there's no extramarital sex, no premarital sex. There's no divorce. I mean, I remember when my dad's older brother got divorced, and it was just a scandal to the family that he was divorced. And so, you know, I grew up feeling those things. And when my own, you know, fast forward to probably the 1990s whenever Will and Grace, the first one came out. I remember my children watching it, and laughing at it. And I watched an episode and I said, and I, my daughter still laughs at me. I forbid them to watch Will and Grace. Because I, I just thought this, this is not appropriate for children. Oh, my God. Well, isn't that Isn't that ironic? The way that all worked out,

Coach Maddox  21:19  
came back to bite you on the back, didn't it? Yeah.

Roger Miller  21:24  
Yeah, my daughter loves that. And you know, of course, now we go back and look at those episodes. And I don't even know what I was thinking. But yeah, I mean, you know, one time I talked to my therapist about you know, we've talked about who were attracted to what, what are you looking for, you know, he thought he thought it was wonderful. When I finally reached the point where I said, I'd like to have a boyfriend someday, because I do intend to stay married. I am not looking for a partner. I find hookup sex. To be

Coach Maddox  22:12  
I don't like it.

Roger Miller  22:16  
I find it dangerous and icky. And it's not, you know, it's just not for me. A friend with benefits might be okay. But I, you know, a boyfriend is really what I'm looking for. But I went to the therapist and I. And I said, you know, I don't think there's something in me that says I shouldn't be with a man who is the same age as or younger than my children. And he looked at me like I had horns growing out of the sides of my head. And he said, Why do you say that? Why do you think that? And the only answer to that was that's what I was raised to believe, I guess. And that, of course, he explained the rational thing, which is there are many older gay men who like younger gay men and younger gay guys who prefer older, and that if it's consensual, and the ages are okay, then what's wrong with that? Now, I found some other reasons that you know, maybe I need to not be with younger guys just because they can be such flakes, but flakes and idiots. But

Coach Maddox  23:44  
yeah, but those are just as abundant in our age

Roger Miller  23:45  
group. Be out there. The other you're right, you're right.

Coach Maddox  23:49  
You know, I don't know that age has a whole lot to do with that I myself

Roger Miller  23:53  
some of these things that you just you just grew up with. And it just takes time, I think to look analytically at that and say there's really no good reason for that. I'm my

Coach Maddox  24:08  
partner is 19 years younger than I am. And I had initially some reservations about that. He actually helped me overcome those reservations.

Roger Miller  24:21  
It absolutely, it absolutely can work out. I see it all the time. Yeah, I

Coach Maddox  24:27  
don't you know, now that we've gotten settled, I don't I don't ever think of him particularly as being younger and I don't think he really thinks of me as being older. We we feel very,

like equal partners. Yeah.

You know, there are ways that I definitely take care of him and then there are ways that he definitely takes care of me.

And they're different. Yeah.

But it doesn't have even remotely some type of a

parent child quality to it now?

None zero.

Roger Miller  25:06  
The first time somebody called me daddy. I wasn't sure what to make of it. And I guess I'm, I'm sort of indifferent to it. I mean, I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to be involved with some guy who is looking to me as their father figure. I mean, I already have children. And a grandchild. I'm not looking for that. Now me there.

Coach Maddox  25:38  
I don't I'm like versus I don't call me, Daddy, I am, I am not your daddy. And I don't want to be in any shape, form or fashion. I want an equal partner

Roger Miller  25:47  
financially or in any other way.

Coach Maddox  25:49  
Exactly.

Exactly. Well,

I have this bag, I want to track back for a minute to the shame conversation, because I think it's so valid and valuable. I have this theory. And I'd love to know what you think of it. And it's simple. It's not the whole answer. But I think it's a piece, I've come to believe that one of the ways that we move through and overcome

shame is

to just merely come out with it and talk about it, whatever it

is, whatever it is, you know, I

think that I've had several conversations now, trying to get kind of just a grasp on it with different different people in my life. And I think that two of the things that we as human beings, experienced the most shame about one, of course, is just sex. And I'm not talking about gay sex, I'm just talking about sex, we just have some real stuff. You know, we're all doing it, we all want it, but we don't want to talk about it.

Roger Miller  26:53  
Right. And

Coach Maddox  26:56  
the other thing is, which I think is just really funny and weird at the same time is

poop.

We all have to go to the bathroom, we all poop. But nobody wants to talk about that. Either. That because there's just some weird shame about that. I think those are the two big ones. I think there's exceptions. I think that there could be others. But I think those are two heavy hitters. I led a workshop recently where we were talking about shame, and overcoming shame. And what I led the workshop attendees through, we're putting them into dyads. And having them openly talk about the thing that they felt the most shame about. And it was phenomenal to see the shifts in the energy shift right before your very eyes, you know, they're all in little dyads. And I'm talking LIS watching them have their conversations about the thing they feel the most shame about. And you could literally see their body language, change their voice inflection change, their whole energy change, as they were just saying it out loud. How does that land for you? What do you think about that?

Roger Miller  28:06  
Oh, you're absolutely right. And it's, it gets easier every time you have the conversation. The first, the first doctor's visit that I had with my PCP, when I basically had to change the change the checkmark on the on the on the chart from one demographic group to the other. And say gay check. Sexually active from no to yes. Once I had told him that, we had to have that conversation. It wasn't one that I had looked forward to, but I never had to have it twice. And now yeah, of course, now I'm on you know, I'm on PrEP. And you know, part of that whole deal is like, you know, I go in every, every three months for testing. And it's, you know, he asked me the questions that He is the doctor has to ask, and I'm perfectly forthcoming. That's also part of me atoning that maybe as a strong word for my history of the substance use disorder was all all the lying that I did to my doctor about my behavior. I you know, I don't do that anymore. If they asked me a question, I will answer it. 100% and, you know, if he wants to talk about are you receptive or penetrative? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I just answered the questions. Did you have that or not?

Coach Maddox  29:59  
How is that different just being able to fully answer those questions. How does that

affect you?

Roger Miller  30:08  
Well, here's the magic word, it feels authentic. It's honest. I mean, why should I be ashamed?

Coach Maddox  30:17  
To be ashamed of who I am? Exactly. I'm a gay man.

Roger Miller  30:23  
And, I mean, we aren't all like this, but I particularly, you know, I like but sex. Okay? There's a lot of this to do. And my doctor needs to talk to me about that. So we're gonna talk about it. I'm fine with that. Yeah, he's just doing his job.

Coach Maddox  30:42  
You know, the one thing that I want to I said it earlier, I want to call it out again, you know, just to make sure the listener is really getting this part of what's really going on for you that's really working as you're owning who you are.

Right?

We have to do that if we're ever going to have the life that we desire. We have to own who we are, whatever it is, you know, did on my morning, morning walk this morning, my guy, my boyfriend said something about me being weird. And I said, Yes, I am. There was a time when I didn't like that it didn't like being weird. Now I own that I'm weird. You know, I don't want to march to the beat of somebody else's drum, I want to march to the beat of my own drum. I want to stand out in a crowd rather than look like everybody else, because we're all little clones. Yes, I am weird. There's something really, really amazing about owning it, whatever it is.

Roger Miller  31:52  
I'm sure I have caused some people to snicker because, you know, I waited till I was 65 to get braces to get tattooed. And, you know, I'm just having the best time. And yeah,

Coach Maddox  32:13  
see this tattoo right here. This was 2017, March of 2017.

Roger Miller  32:20  
My first one is from a year ago. It is a lotus blossom, which has great spiritual significance. And it was designed by my daughter who is quite a nice digital artist. And she and I paid for it. And she and I went to her tattoo artist and we both got them on our on our forearm. So we got father daughter tattoos.

Coach Maddox  32:52  
You know, I think the beautiful thing about what you're describing Roger is, there was a whole different life that started three years ago. Right. Hence, the Bryce's since the tattoos and varying other things that you've probably done. A whole new life started and everything looked different. In the moment that that new life started. Yes.

Roger Miller  33:18  
I retired from my 40 hour, I've always worked in the public sector. I'm a professional librarian. I retired from my 40 hour week job actually pretty early at the age of 54. And in 2012, and it was it was after that, that, that my life just started to get smaller. I mean, I think a lot of people who retire find that to be true. I have not, I didn't travel and of course, my drinking just got worse and the isolation. But my my point is, is that my life was just getting smaller and smaller. And the recovery process is what dragged me out into the sunshine again, and got me into rubbing elbows with with the rest of humanity that has figured out that they need to stick together to work on their problems. And I started that process and once you know once I once I did come out and was able to establish myself in the gay community and my my therapist was very helpful. He suggested the front runners organization which is a bunch of guys that walk every Saturday morning and our lovely Spring Grove cemetery, a beautiful cemetery here in Cincinnati. To tri state prime timers, which is older gay men, I don't participate in that one anymore. The one I really wanted to do was the Cincinnati Men's Chorus. But then COVID came along and that that wasn't going to be an option. So I waited. And I joined that group in the fall of 2021. And it was

Coach Maddox  35:39  
it was just life changing.

Roger Miller  35:45  
Our our current board president says that every time our chorus takes the stage, lives are changed. It can be people in the audience, who maybe have never seen a whole stage full of gay men who seem normal and happy. And who are having fun and loving their life, to maybe it's somebody like me in the chorus who has never done this before. And for whom standing in I've been a professional choral singer for over four decades with conservatory training, vast performing experience, but I've never sung it with a group like that. And, you know, for me to screw up the courage to do that. That was a big deal for me. So yeah, it was life changing. And he's absolutely right.

Coach Maddox  36:42  
I sang with the Turtle Creek chorale in Dallas in the early 90s for about three or three and a half years. And at that time, it was touted as the largest gay chorus in the world, we had about 225 voices every time we performed. So it was quite an amazing thing. I actually during that period of time had the privilege of singing on the stage of Carnegie Hall was sold out audience it was amazing.

Great. Well, I'd like to hear more

about the aspect of your story with your wife. Okay, you're still married? You use the term

mixed orientation,

relationship or marriage? Marriage? Yes. I'd like to hear more about that. Because that's not something I'm really familiar with. And I think it's a unique thing. And I'd love for you to kind of break it down. And how does that work? How do you have a wife and a boyfriend at the same time? I think there's people that really need to know want to know,

Roger Miller  37:59  
right? And be completely honest about it.

Coach Maddox  38:03  
Yes. So

Tegrity Yeah. So

Roger Miller  38:14  
Well, it's been very helpful to me, for me to find other men in the same situation. And I related to you before we started recording that. I know another I have a friend also in the Cincinnati Men's Chorus who is in a mixed orientation marriage. And he's been out for about a year longer than I have. And, you know, there's no two situations like this that are the same. I've learned that I don't know all the particulars of his situation at all, but I do know that his wife is is comfortable enough with his with his status as a gay man that you know, I have been to two public events in the past six months where he has had his boyfriend and his wife at the event, sitting in a sitting in a in a concert in a theater with the boyfriend on one side and the wife on the other. My marriage is not there yet. My wife is aware that I recently have come along to a relationship that I am calling my first boyfriend. She's aware of that. Alright, our marriage and we have been married for 41 years. I got married at age 24 in 1981 and

Coach Maddox  40:03  
It is.

Roger Miller  40:06  
I've heard it described as a companionate marriage, which is a polite way of saying that there's no physical intimacy. We love and care for each other. We've been living, I've been been with her for so long, we've had our careers, we have our we've raised our children, we have our grandchild. And, you know, we're heading into, she's a little older than I am. To, you know, the, the, not the last days, but you know, toward the latter part of our lives. And it was not, it was never on the table for me to step away from this marriage, I felt too much love and responsibility to provide for her. She has various health issues that require me to be the primary caregiver. And if I weren't here, I don't know who would be here. And that's a commitment that I made. And I'm willing, I'm willing to do that, I want to do that. So, but it's been a process of defining how much latitude and how much space I can have. And when I did come out to her, I was absolutely honest, that I had never had sex with a man. I, I she was the only person I had ever had sex with, although it had been decades in the past.

Coach Maddox  41:55  
A number of months later,

Roger Miller  41:58  
I had decided that I was ready to, to begin to have that experience in my life. And, you know, the question before me was, Do I tell her or not? Because like I said, I want to be honest. So you know, I can find it in a couple of my sober friends, I confided in my therapist, but the basic question, do I tell her that I'm having sex with men, or that I want to have sex with men? And my feeling was that I should not that I had already told her I was gay. And she didn't really want to know any details anyway. So I elected not to do that. That's the advice I got as well. So I didn't and then, you know, after a few months, she came across, you know, something that let let her to quit, you know, question that, you know, she found basically, she found my go bag with my, my supplies for going out and wanted wanted to know what was going on. So you know, I told her and the story as one of being disappointed or angry. But that, that fades, and it did fade. And I've learned that a person's initial reaction often changes many times. And I, we just have to give each other space to get our brain wrapped around something. And she did. And you know, for the last you know, for the last while here, we're finally to a point where she is okay with me having my boyfriend here in the, in the house, and she's never met him. But after she's gone to bed in the evening, it's okay if he comes over. And I'm just so grateful that I have that space. I mean, it is my house just as much as it's hers. It is my space too. But I'm grateful that I'm able to be who I am without having to run around and hide the fact that I'm you know, having a sexual relationship with another man that night I can do it in my home if I want or need to. So, you know, I'm very appreciative that she's there.

Coach Maddox  44:52  
You know, you're one of the things that I noticed right away, Roger is your story. just speaks volumes both about who you and your Your wife, our you know, your commitment to speaking the truth. And the you know, the grace that she has extended to you that she loves you, obviously, you know, to be as generous as she has been interest says volumes about both of you.

Roger Miller  45:25  
Thank thanks, Maddox. I agree. I, I, when you reached out about being on this podcast, I think my initial response was, I'd love to, but I need to check with my wife first. And because and I explained to her what this podcast was about, and I said, you and I may not know a single other person that's ever heard of this podcast, or that will ever listen to it. But having said that, once it's out there, it's out there. And, you know, I intend to share my story openly. And honestly, and I can't do that without reflecting some of your story too. And that's why I wouldn't I will not do this unless you're okay with it. And so I gave her the, the option to just say no, and I would have been fine with that. And she said, I don't care.

Coach Maddox  46:30  
She said, I'm,

Roger Miller  46:33  
I am totally honest with everyone, too. If somebody asked me a question, I just answer it. So she said, I have nothing to be ashamed of.

Coach Maddox  46:42  
You know, that's freaking it's just,

it really is, you know, it just I'm taken back to

the quote, you know,

speak the truth. And the truth will set you free. I may not be quoting it exactly. But the essence is there.

Yeah. After I first come out,

Roger Miller  47:07  
I think I had said something about.

Coach Maddox  47:11  
Well, I mean,

Roger Miller  47:14  
I think I'd probably told the therapist or something. But you know, I don't, I don't intend to come out and like start running up the running up the pride flag on the flagpole. And, you know, having all the bumper stickers on my car, and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And I didn't, not initially. But the first time and this was a couple of years ago, I said something about, we live in an older home. That looks wonderful with a flag hanging on the front of it. And I said something about putting out a pride flag. Remember, we have a gay child, queer child. And her response at that time was, well, I'm not comfortable with that. I'm not gay.

Coach Maddox  48:09  
Well, I just let it go.

Roger Miller  48:13  
But then, a couple of weeks ago, she was leaving town. For a family reunion was going to be gone for five days. During June, bear in mind, and I don't know when this will be when this will air but this is being recorded during pride month. And I just thought to hell with it. I'm putting up a pride flag. So I went and bought the new the progress pride flag that shows all the colors. And I walked in and she said, What do you have there? And I said, I bought a I bought a progress pride flag to hang on front of the house. And she said, Well, I'm not really comfortable with that. She said, I you know, I like to decorate my porch for all the holidays like the Fourth of July and, and she does I mean, it's all there's always a thing. And I said, Well, you can have 11 months of the year. This is Pride Month. And I want that flag on my house. And that was that was it. So I put that sucker on the front of the house. And I plastered it all over Facebook. And I got hundreds of likes. It was awesome. It was it was it was a it looks it looks great. It just really felt good to put it out there and it but you know, kudos to her too. Or just finally saying Oh, whatever.

Coach Maddox  49:46  
Exactly.

Exactly. So, Roger, do you think that having a queer 40 year old daughter played a role in her ability to accept

Your situation? Do you think that

made it in any way different or easier than it would have been if you didn't

Roger Miller  50:11  
have a queer daughter? Oh, absolutely. I also think it, there has been a time or two that she felt really outnumbered.

Coach Maddox  50:23  
But, you know, that's life.

Roger Miller  50:27  
Yes, it was easier. And of course, it's also ironic that when my daughter came out, she was in college, and I did not handle it well at all. I mean, I wasn't a complete jackass. But I mean, the first time we were in a social situation, and she showed up with, you know, a tattooed Girl With All The colored hair and all of that. I mean, I'd never been seen in public with a person like that, you know, heteronormative, you know, this was back in the early this is 20 years ago, and I just wasn't comfortable. And then, you know, then then I, you know, finally, we had it was it was not just a rejection, I wasn't rejecting her, I was rejecting myself,

Coach Maddox  51:16  
I was just going to ask how much of that was your, your discomfort with self in that moment?

Roger Miller  51:22  
Oh, absolutely. discomfort.

Coach Maddox  51:27  
You know, when we are aware of what we are, but we're in denial of what we are, it makes it real hard for us to be around somebody that's like us.

Roger Miller  51:41  
And I am a professional musician, and a librarian. And if you know anything about either of those two fields, they are loaded with LGBTQ people. So I have rubbed elbows with hundreds of gay men over the years. Some and they've been some of my best friends, but I could never let them know. Yeah. Until now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the ones that I really care about, I've gone back and, and had a conversation with, you know, just to, and you know, what, they've been absolutely lovely. Absolutely lovely and accepting. And it's been awesome. Yeah, I had feared not being accepted by the gay community. And that was a fear I really shouldn't have worried about. Yeah, that's beautiful.

Coach Maddox  52:42  
I love hearing that. Because not everybody's as fortunate as you are there. You know, our community has, we have elements of our community can be extremely judgmental. Yeah.

Roger Miller  52:56  
Well, you know, I hang out with, with, with these guys in the Men's Chorus, and they're, they're just awesome. I mean, I've got rehearsal tonight, it's our last rehearsal of our 32nd season. And Wednesday nights is my favorite night of the week. I just absolutely loved it. Some of my best friends that I've had in my whole life, and that, you know, I just feel like at this time of my life, whereas before, back in the, in the 2010s, my life was just getting smaller and smaller, and now it's just getting bigger and bigger. Isn't that amazing? It's wonderful. I, it's just awesome.

Coach Maddox  53:42  
You know, I just want to call out that you did that. Roger. That that's not something that just happened to you or got handed to you. Or, Oh, I have no idea how this happened. You took charge of your life you took responsibility. Am I correct?

Roger Miller  54:02  
Yeah, absolutely. Well, yeah, exactly. I mean, and you you know, when I get when I got sober, the only person that I could get sober for and stay that way was for myself. It's a great act of self love to to do that. It's very

Coach Maddox  54:27  
nice. And so glad you call that out.

Roger Miller  54:30  
And I and I've learned I don't think I've ever and I've heard you talk about this on the podcast a lot. It's about the ability to love yourself. And I I have never I mean, this, you know, we're judgmental and we're it sounds egotistical, but I have never loved myself as much as I do now. And, you know, I don't look particularly successful or I'm not famous or wealthy. But I, you know, I really like who I am. And I'm very proud of that.

Coach Maddox  55:06  
Well, and because you really like who you are others are going to really like who you are. Because that's just the way it works. Not everybody, you know, there'll be some people that will find that off putting, but those aren't your tribe?

Roger Miller  55:19  
No. Well, and this is one of the reasons I kind of wanted to be on this broadcast on this podcast is because I've listened to a lot of podcasts. And, and this is not a shameless plug, I think it's the best one. I think it is touched my life. And I know that, that it has helped many other men. And if there's something about my story, that that could be of help to some other

man out there who is gay. Who is in a heterosexual marriage. Or maybe who's not in a marriage, but who's coming who's coming out later in life. It's, I don't think I it's never too late.

Coach Maddox  56:12  
It is never too late. And we are never too old. My my father

found love. At age 82.

My mom had passed away, he found a girlfriend for a period of years. And then she passed away, he found another girlfriend at two that stayed with him until the time of his death. And at that point, I was single and had been for a number of years. And I said to myself, your father over there has shown you that it's never too late. And you're never too old.

Roger Miller  56:42  
Yep. And isn't that wonderful?

Coach Maddox  56:46  
It is wonderful. There's one more piece of your puzzle that I want to ask about. And we don't have to spend a lot of time on it. Because we've already pretty much spent our our time. But we kind of know how your wife has handled and responded to the mixed. Wait a minute. I can't say it. Say it again. Next

Roger Miller  57:08  
orientation marriage. There we go. Mom mo M. How?

Coach Maddox  57:15  
How did the boyfriend respond? How did the boyfriend deal with having to share you with a wife?

The end of the day you

go home to sleep in a house with her? Sleep with her but sleep and a house? I

Roger Miller  57:32  
understand. Yeah, I? Well. My my take on it is that

Coach Maddox  57:42  
the majority of

Roger Miller  57:45  
guys that I see, like on the dating apps. If they're looking for a long term relationship. Odds are they are not would not be willing to share the person with someone else. But that wasn't what I was looking for. So it's it. It is difficult. It is difficult to find a person who is okay with it. And but, but they're out there.

Coach Maddox  58:25  
They are out there. Yeah. Because yeah.

Roger Miller  58:28  
Because not every gay man who's single is looking for they aren't looking. There are guys out there who don't want partners that don't want husbands. But they would like something more than a random hookup to

Coach Maddox  58:42  
that space in between. Yep. So I

Roger Miller  58:45  
think that's what we're trying to find is that space between two and and I know enough guys for whom this has worked that have had long term boyfriends for years. And and had their their marriage survive if not thrive? There's more honesty in my marriage now than there has been because of this.

Coach Maddox  59:14  
That's beautiful.

That's truly beautiful. The power of the truth. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Well, your story is amazing. And I'm so honored and grateful to be able to be the recipient to hear this story first. First chance or have you said at first person thank you for your vulnerability and and just sharing so openly.

Oh, you're real welcome.

Roger Miller  59:48  
I mean, I have shared about it quite a bit. And I mean, if this was the first time I were talking about it, it would be difficult, but it's just it's just who I am. Now, and I've talked about this any number of any number of times and venues and, and you know, I don't make a big public deal out of it, but my best friends, they know everything. Absolutely.

Coach Maddox  1:00:17  
So if you were going to share your your words of wisdom with a man that might be embarking on a similar situation, has a wife that he fully intends to stay married to, but is embarking on the possibility he's coming out or has come out, wants to embark on the on the possibility

of a boyfriend.

In addition to the wife, what words of wisdom would you share?

You're not alone.

Roger Miller  1:00:54  
And the sooner you realize that there are many men just like you, who have preceded you on this journey, who if who are willing to talk to you and share their love and wisdom with you.

Coach Maddox  1:01:17  
It's so much easier. So I would just say, be open, open to learning.

Roger Miller  1:01:29  
And you go with your you go at your own speed, you know.

Coach Maddox  1:01:36  
You mentioned the organization, it was called husbands

Roger Miller  1:01:40  
out two wives at two

Coach Maddox  1:01:42  
wives. Would you send me a link to that? Sure. I will put them into

Roger Miller  1:01:50  
a group. It's a private group and people can if they're interested, they can read about it. And if you know, I think the correct I don't recall the criteria, but basically you have to be gay by in a heterosexual marriage. And you either have or intend to come out to the wife.

Coach Maddox  1:02:10  
Okay. I would love to include that in the show notes as a resource.

Roger Miller  1:02:15  
I'd be happy to do that.

Coach Maddox  1:02:16  
Awesome. Well, thank you so much. Roger. Are you ready for some rapid fire questions?

Roger Miller  1:02:24  
I don't have a seatbelt on but I'll try. I bet you'll do. Great.

Coach Maddox  1:02:30  
Question number one, if you only had moments to live, what would be your greatest regret?

denying myself the fun and camaraderie and

Roger Miller  1:03:09  
sensuality and, and all the wonderful things that a gay life can have denying myself that gift because I believe it is a gift that I just somehow didn't feel worthy of. I wish that, you know, I wish that I could have discovered it sooner. But I'm grateful for

Coach Maddox  1:03:37  
you know, I'm still upright. Yes. Yes.

You know, the flip side of that is being grateful that you just didn't live out your life and die without discovering it.

Roger Miller  1:03:50  
Yes. I mean, it's, it's a it's a tricky thing. Because I mean, it's, it's one thing to say, Oh, I wish I had known this back when I was in college. I mean, of course, I you know, after a lot of work, I mean, I now see that, you know, I've had same sex attraction since at least the seventh grade probably earlier. But I never permitted myself to do anything other than just have fantasies, fantasies that went on for decades. If I had acted on that and done you know, if I had come out back in the 70s Well, number one, I would probably not be here because I would have had AIDS and died.

Coach Maddox  1:04:33  
There's a strong possibility you know, I'm exact same age as you are. And there were lots of our generation was the one that was hit the hardest.

Roger Miller  1:04:41  
One of my one of my college friends was dead within. You know, a couple of years of when I saw him last law, people went I would probably be dead. But if but then I would have denied myself. The experience of living with with my wife for all these years of having I know that same sex couples have children, but I wouldn't have those children. And I wouldn't have my granddaughter. And I mean, I mean, if I had to choose between having them and, you know, having not come out, I wouldn't I would, I would still be in the closet. But you're there was no, it wasn't. That was not a choice I ever had to make. I can have it all. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  1:05:30  
Yeah, say that, again, Roger.

Roger Miller  1:05:32  
You don't have to choose between keeping the marriage and the children necessarily. You can have it all you can with enough adult conversation and support of other friends and therapists and organizations that have people that are on this path together. It's, it's quite achievable. To to have it all added, I feel like I do. I'm very grateful. That's beautiful.

Coach Maddox  1:06:08  
Beautiful. So what has been the best moment of your life thus far?

Shining Star?

Roger Miller  1:06:17  
Oh, I knew you're gonna ask that question.

Well, this doesn't have anything to do with with the gay experience. But I would say when my when my first child, my daughter was born, you know, being being present in the operating room for her seat for my wife C section and greeting her. And that's just remarkable

Coach Maddox  1:06:48  
intuition. told me, that might be what you would say, I wasn't sure. That doesn't surprise me.

Roger Miller  1:06:53  
I mean, there are some other things too. I mean, I mean, you know, the, for the first time that the first time I had sex with a man. I mean, it was absolutely exhilarating. Mind blowing, right. Yeah. And it was like, Well, I guess there's no doubt that you really are gay, because that was awesome.

Coach Maddox  1:07:18  
I love it. I remember it. It was many, many years ago, but I remember it. Well. It was like, Oh, my God. What have I been waiting for? You have the last question. Roger, what is your superpower?

Roger Miller  1:07:52  
I, I'm certainly not a therapist, I have no training in that. But I'm an I'm a wonderful listener. And people tend to share want to share their lives with me. And I mean, you know, we're both 66 Maddix. And in there's a lot of lived experience that we have, and and you've been a pet you've been paying attention and as have I and I've learned a lot about I know what's worked for me and what's not worked for me. And I'm happy to share that with other people. So I I really aspire to be a very approachable

Coach Maddox  1:08:42  
friend. Hmm. I love that. That's beautiful. That's beautiful.

Well, this has been absolutely amazing. I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation. Thank you so much. And there's one thing I want to leave you with. And I know I say this pretty much every at the end of every episode, but it's true at the end of every episode, and that is I do absolutely experience you as an authentic caveman. Roger,

Roger Miller  1:09:11  
and I'm looking right back at one. That's awesome. And he even says authentic right above your head on the screen. So it case there was any doubt

Coach Maddox  1:09:22  
which exactly.

Roger Miller  1:09:25  
Well, thank you. And of course now that you know, whenever my episode is eventually aired, then everyone else will know that I'm authentic too. So

Coach Maddox  1:09:33  
yes, they will. The whole world is going to know we're only take Roger there yes

Transcribed by https://otter.ai