Coach Maddox  0:03  
Hello, Jonathan Lee, and welcome to The Authentic Gay Man Podcast all the way from on the other side of the pond.

Jonathan Lee  0:12  
Indeed, yeah, thank you really good to be here. Yes. So, as you can probably tell from my accent, I'm from England. So yeah,

Coach Maddox  0:19  
you know, we Americans are a total sucker for a beautiful British accent. We love it. So,

Jonathan Lee  0:30  
let's just see if I've got that. But yeah,

Coach Maddox  0:33  
yeah, we do. We love it. Let's just jump right in. So first of all, I'd love to know, Jonathan, how you define authentic gay men, what that means to you, or how that shows up in your life.

Jonathan Lee  0:48  
I think in terms of being authentic, for me, is something about not hiding aspects of yourself. And not filtering parts of what you what I say or do. And if I reflect back to my younger years, particularly probably when my 20s I think I see myself as being a completely different person now to when I was 20. But I would never, like hold my boyfriend's hand in public. And I think at the time, I would say, I'm not a touchy feely person. And that's why and if I was, you know, dating a woman, it would be no different. But I think deep down and kind of on reflection. Now. I don't think that was the case. And I think it was because I was embarrassed, we've kind of showing that to other people showing that part of me. And I can also remember talking to a colleague, where I was talking about my partner. And instead of using he, I used today, and we're going back 20 years, so way before pronouns kind of became a thing. And I don't mean in terms of our awareness of that. Whereas now, I wouldn't give a wouldn't give a shit, do you? Not? I mean, I'm, I'm happy to meet what I haven't got a partner to hold to hold their hand. If I did, I would. And yeah, and I would be, you know, freely talking about that to kind of colleagues. So I think it's about not, I think it's about expressing what's going on in the inside, on the outside and not kind of, you know, that being shown through behaviors, actions, what I say what I do what I want to wear, for me, that's about, you know, authentic.

Coach Maddox  2:26  
I think you've nailed that. And I love what you've said about the whole head holding hands thing. I am with a partner now. And we are both very affectionate with each other, and we love to hold hands. And we hold hands everywhere we go. And it's been quite remarkable. You know, I've said for a long time that I, I really believe one of the most profound forms of activism is to merely live your life openly and honestly, for all to see, you know, if you're an affectionate person, be an infection IT person. And I think that, you know, it's, it's very a form of activism, but it is also very authentic. And it's amazing to me, and I kind of want to, you know, expand on this just a little bit, because I want to invite any listener that's listening to this, if you have somebody in your life that you care about, and you do want to hold their hand, by God do it, you know, you'll be surprised, I was truly surprised. We walk on the local hiking bike trail holding hands every morning, we just came off of Caribbean cruise where we stopped in varying different ports. We held hands on the ship, the whole week, we held hands out in the ports. We never, ever ran into any kind of problem. We never got any negative feedback. But we got the most amazing amount of positive feedback, people would stop us and say, Oh, my gosh, you're the cutest thing. You know, we had people stop us and say, Okay, you're so cute. Give me your phone, and we would give them our phone and they would take a photo of us with our own phone and then hand it back to us. Like they were like going, oh, let's get a picture of the freaks or anything. They were taking pictures for us. And that happened a lot. We got so many comments that it wasn't even funny. And I if you'd have told me that was going to happen before I actually did it. I would have been in disbelief. But the world really is changing. We've been all we went to Guatemala and did exactly the same thing. We held hands and everywhere we went. Yeah. And so our hope is that in us doing that we're creating a space and giving other GBT Q men permission to do the same thing. So I'm so so glad you brought that up. Yeah,

Jonathan Lee  4:54  
I had a similar experience actually where it was just a simple moment. You know, I mean, walking down the high street With. So when I nearly fought well, I'm 42. Now. So when I was 40, I was in a relationship with someone or we just split up, me turning 40 and actually just catching someone's eye as I was holding my boyfriend's hand, and she smiled, and it just felt it was lovely. Do you know I mean? Yeah. But I also think it's something about because I quite often I know, friends who might hold their partner's hand what's on holiday, but they wouldn't in their local area, which I find quite interesting. So, yes, that maybe it's something about being more free or outside of, you know, those around them? Yeah, yeah, I'd

Coach Maddox  5:40  
be in a place where you're not known really, by anybody more comfortable, you know, we just do it everywhere we go right here at home. So yeah, well, thank you for that. I loved your definition. And I think it fit in nicely with all the other definitions that I have, that each of the guests have have shared. So let's talk let's get into what we're really here about. And that's to hear your personal story. You know, my question is, what is the biggest challenge that you've had to overcome? Or perhaps are still overcoming in this lifetime? Yeah,

Jonathan Lee  6:16  
well, it's probably I don't know, if it's my biggest challenge. But I guess what I'm here talking about is my experience of a breakup. And it wasn't necessarily a significant breakup, it was, I was only with my partner for two years. But it was a week before turning 40. And it was what we're having sex, which, I'm sure probably didn't help in terms of my kind of confidence, or kind of ego or anything. And, yeah, and it was, and yeah, just how I've kind of coped with that I've managed with that I've moved on. Because that was quite Yeah, my 40th year was a really big one, I think, because of those kind of those two things coming together, turning 40, which is, you know, for anyone or you know, or for most people would is a fairly big thing anyway, and then having that that kind of relationship, and which I wasn't expecting, I mean, we'd been together for two years. During that time, we'd probably split up split up about five times during that time. So it shouldn't should probably come to a massive surprise, but it did. And I really struggled. And I kind of found myself in for the first, I don't know, four months or so in quite a dark place. And I don't think, well, what didn't help was that I. So on the day of me turning 40, I was curious as to whether or not he had moved on. So I logged into, into a grinder into, you know, into a social media app, and to see if he was there, and he was, and then that kind of, you know, that kind of rudeness that you kind of feel in terms of seeing that. But rather than think, like, okay, he's moved on, I should, too. I created a fake profile, so that I could, you know, kind of find out more about him Do you know, and actually, I had a conversation with him asking about, you know, who he was saying he's single, he's recently split up, and I was kind of asking those questions about, oh, why have you split up? And, and, and I think back now, and I'm quite shameful, my behavior. And I kind of think, Why the hell did you do that? You know, and I knew it was unhealthy. But I, I, I, yeah, I just couldn't help myself. And kind of so I tracked his whereabouts fairly, you know, several times, if not more a day, I could see every time he kind of moved on the grid and kind of then in my head, it was like, Alright, he's met someone, now he's having sex with them. Or when he wasn't, I was just imagining him having these kind of explicit, you know, checks, sex conversations. And it was agony, which was completely self conflicted. So I guess that's the first part of my 40th year that kind of obsessional behavior and that kind of dark place, which I kind of found myself in. And I can pause there, if there's any questions that you you've had all I can move on to say what else kind of happened following that?

Coach Maddox  9:29  
Yeah, just a comment. You know, you started off saying it wasn't really that significant of a relationship, but it sounds like the significance was the breakup was significant. Maybe the relationship wasn't all that significant. But the breakup coupled with, you know, the other things that sort of war brewing around you the 40th birthday. I mean, it does sound like a you know, huge challenge.

Jonathan Lee  9:57  
Yeah, it's a really interesting didn't point that you make there because, okay, it may not have been significant in terms of time. But I think two things were going on for me one. I think in some ways, he was my first true love. So I've never experienced until I met him that, like the butterfly feeling, you know that, you know, and it sounds really cheesy to say, but I kind of felt like I was like my own lead in the in my own rom com, you know. And, yeah, so in some ways, I think he kind of was my first love. But the other part, I suppose, is that And ironically, you know, in terms of me, taking issue with the fact that he moved on quite quickly, I reflect on my behavior in previous relationships prior to him. And that's something that I'm guilty of, and, you know, and most of my adult life I've been, I've been in relationships, I met my partner, when I was 20, he was my first kind of partner, we were together for about 1516 years. And then I went on, you know, I had a small gap of a few months, and the limit someone else a gap of, again, a few months, and then I met someone else, and then I met, you know, the person who I'm referring to. So I think there's something about that as well, in terms of the grieving that I did, because I think it was grieving that I was experiencing wasn't necessarily about the person I just broken up with, I think it might have been about my long term partner as well, which I didn't allow at the time, I just went straight into another relationship, something I'm sure people can relate to. And you know, and kind of,

Coach Maddox  11:47  
yeah, I think a high percentage of people can probably relate to that. And it's such a powerful thing that you're calling out, because I read an article one time that said, when we don't give ourselves the time and space to actually grieve the ending of a relationship, whether it's somebody that's died, or somebody that's moved on and left us, when we don't grieve that properly, it's cumulative. So then you got another relationship, and that ends, and if you don't grieve that properly, and I've known people that starting somewhere around, you know, breakup, number five, or six, when they've never grieved any of them, all of a sudden, it just crashed in on them. And it was more than they could handle because they found themselves grieving, like five losses, or six losses. All in once, I think we do ourselves a real injustice when we get out of a relationship and go directly into another one.

Jonathan Lee  12:41  
And that's where I'm in now, where I've got no interest at all in being in a relationship. And I don't know if it's me kind of almost empowering. Because what the other thing that I've noticed is me in relationships, I will put other people's needs before mine. And it's quite empowering now for me to think, right? Well, what can I do? What can I achieve when when solely I'm kind of really focused on me. So I don't know if I'm just kind of embracing that kind of, you know, inner strength for whatever you want to call it. Or if I'm just put off by men, but whatever it is, I'm kind of enjoying it. And I'm feeling quite kind of Yeah, in a good place about that.

Coach Maddox  13:24  
Well, you know, there's a lot to be said, for learning to fill our cup first.

Jonathan Lee  13:28  
Hmm, absolutely. Yeah. And that's right.

Coach Maddox  13:32  
And you know, what you're doing gives you an opportunity to build a healthy habits. So when another relationship does come along, if you've built this healthy habit of putting your filling your cup first, you have a stronger likelihood of hanging on to that when you get into the new relationship. Yeah, absolutely. This is probably my first relationship to actually be able to sustain that filling my cup first. And even still, I've slipped a little bit, there's moments when I realize, oh, you know, this is one of those times when you probably ought to focus a little bit more on you and a little bit more less on him. But overall, I would say compared to what I used to do, I've come light years. I think you're on track.

Jonathan Lee  14:21  
Yeah, I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of you it sounds like you've got that awareness there as well. I do. You to point out, we will all kind of you know, see yourself in

Coach Maddox  14:42  
Jonathan, hang on just a second. My browser is we're getting a little bit of lag. Let me close something on my computer and see if that does make things a little bit better. I hope the listeners will bear with me for just a moment.

There we go. Okay, that should help. All right, thank you. Well, you know, I'd like to know a little bit about, as you've, you know, this is it's been, what, two years now? Since you for?

Jonathan Lee  15:18  
Yeah, just over two years, about two and a half years. Yeah. What you're nearly that? Yeah. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  15:24  
So what have you learned about you? What's what what have been the revelations as you came through that dark space and realize that you needed to, like take a break from men and relationships? And you've first?

Jonathan Lee  15:39  
Well, I know that now in terms of that break from relationship, but all but in that, in that 40th year that I'm talking about? I probably learned, you know, I didn't learn that at the time. And so, so for the first four months was that kind of dark period, if you want to call it that? And then I started to think, right, well, I need to, I realized it wasn't healthy in terms of kind of, you know, stalking, whatever word you want to use my ex. And that's when I started to kind of focus on me, but rather than what was going on in the inside, I went on the exterior. So I can do you know, those cliche things of, you know, a new haircut, I dyed my hair, I had the knee years, I got Botox, I'd sell it. I bought a sports car. You know, I just maxed out the credit card on new clothes, desperately trying to change my image. Obviously, what followed was, you know, thinking that that sense of what the exterior and it's more input probably learned that the hard way.

Coach Maddox  16:51  
We're still having just a little bit of lag. Give me just a second here.

There we go. Okay. So I'd love to know as you you talked about the veneers and the fillers and Botox and a sports car, all these things that you were doing new wardrobe. What do you think was going on inside of you that was driving that specific behavior?

Jonathan Lee  17:24  
I think I wanted to change myself. I yeah, I think it was where I was unhappy. So it's, it probably felt like more of a quick way, a quick fix to it or something instant. And in some ways, it was, you know, initially, I felt really good, you know, driving away from the Mercedes dealership, you know, and you know, and I felt, you know, good when my teeth were done. In the Hollywood smile, and kind of all of that. But that's what the motivator was, I think it was about changing, trying to change myself.

Coach Maddox  18:07  
Well, and looking back now, in retrospect, do you feel like you were trying to become more of who you really were? Or were you trying to be somebody different than who you really are?

Jonathan Lee  18:22  
At the time, I think it was about trying to be someone different. Whether or not it was the rejection that I felt from. So when I did break up, and in the book, I call imagine, so I just call him Adam. Now. What he said was, I was only 70% of what he was looking for. So I think it was about Yeah, I don't know if it was about searching for that. 30%. Or if it was just kind of thinking like, well, I'm, I'm not good enough. And yeah, so I think that was those that that were looking to change parts of me.

Coach Maddox  19:03  
Yeah. And what did you come to finally do to get to the other side of that? I'm not good enough. Because I think that's, that's a universal thing. I know few people that don't have some element of that. What did you what how were you able to get to because I'm getting that you're on the other side of that now? Huh? Yeah. From point A to point B.

Jonathan Lee  19:29  
I, it's a really that's a really good question. And I I don't know if I can answer that. Because I think it was, it was when that focus was actually taken away, or the focus wasn't on myself or my appearance. And it was about realizing what other aspects of my life do I need to look at. And I mentioned before the long term relationship that I was in, that we were together when we met when I was quite young and a third like 15 odd years old. So, and we're both introverts, and we lived in our own little bubble, which was absolutely fine until that kind of bubble popped. And then when we did split up, like I said, before I kind of went into relationship went into relationship. And what was actually missing in my life was more meaningful connections and actually having like, hobbies and interests. So I think I naturally, I say, naturally, but it was a focus, I suppose. But I went on to then, to form friendships with people. First of all, I went on to go on numerous kind of hookups and dates and stuff like that. But after I realized that, that wasn't fulfilling, and that wasn't what I wanted, I started to make friends. And I've got a really good circle of friends around me now. And that's, I think, for me, that's important. And that was what was missing in my life. And now I do feel fulfilled, and I, I don't care what I look like, necessarily, or maybe maybe I do a little bit, but I think that is, you know, that's me. And I bet that's probably a something that I've got from my childhood, and particularly my mum who's always really well dressed and stuff like that. And we're quite similar in that regard. But it's not, it's not something that I'm trying to fix anymore. I'm I'm okay with how I am. And you know, what I do?

Coach Maddox  21:26  
So how does you mentioned? You know, going from the dating in the hookups, to building a nice circle of friends? Where does your relationship with you come into all this?

You didn't know, I was going to ask the hard questions, did you?

I don't know

Jonathan Lee  21:54  
really. I feel like I'm, I'm myself when I'm around my friends. And, but it's really good about having that wider connection with people. And there's something almost quite special actually about kind of sharing that. Maybe at times opinions, maybe there could be different opinions, but just being around other people and, you know, go into a dinner party, and I started to realize that actually, I was, you know, quite funny. And you know, and actually and to kind of share those kinds of common interests. I guess it's something about being able to dip into that, or particularly, maybe different intervals, you know, relationships or dating, and not lose aspects of myself. So yeah, you know, just being more more more real. And that goes back to what I was saying before about how I've probably in my past had put other people's needs above mine.

Coach Maddox  23:05  
So who?

Jonathan Lee  23:10  
Yeah, so I think there's something about that in turn Western at all that and I'm not sure. Well,

Coach Maddox  23:17  
if you looked back and tell, forgive me if I'm being redundant, but if you looked back on the relationship that you had with you, let's say two and a half years ago, when you broke up, and the relationship that you have with you now, what would you say is different or has changed?

Jonathan Lee  23:37  
I would say I'm more confident. I would say I'm more fulfilled

Yeah, I know, I'd say I'm probably more happier.

Coach Maddox  23:55  
And and can you define what you attribute that to? And it may be something you've already said, and that's okay, too. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker  24:11  
I don't know if I can.

Jonathan Lee  24:18  
I think it's just about being more grounded in who I am. And I don't know how and when that came about, because I think it was a gradual thing. So yeah, I think it was when the focus was taken off dating or taken off my ex and was put on me.

Coach Maddox  24:39  
So I'm kind of you're not really saying this, but I'm kind of hearing that you've seen kind of this metamorphosis. And there is a certain amount of it that you feel is kind of organically happened that it wasn't necessarily some of it. Some of it, of course, was intentional. But I'm hearing that maybe some of it wasn't quite so intentional. Is that accurate?

Jonathan Lee  25:03  
Yeah, it probably Yeah, I think so. You know, I, it was a conscious effort to kind of think and I had a moment where I thought if if I died, like today, who would be at my funeral. And it was quite a depressing thought, and I couldn't really imagine that many people there. So I think that's when I felt the focus needed to be away from just hooking up with guys, which was easier for me to do, I you know, I could eat on a sexual level, I could connect with somebody on a emotional level, or, you know, or anything, probably more real, really. I, I struggled and, you know, and, and I think I'd probably, it might be where I, at school, I kind of felt my family, I felt different to my, my kind of school friends, and I didn't know at the time, but obviously, in my head, I was, you know, kind of coming to terms with my sexuality. So I deliberately kind of chose a college away from people. And then, because I felt different, I didn't really mix with people. So I was a bit of a loner. And then I went to university. And, again, I was just trying to come to terms with my sexuality, I suppose I didn't really mix and, you know, kind of socialize and lived almost like the life of a, you know, and a retired person during my university years, they weren't kind of partying or clubbing or anything like that. So, I think I struggled to be able to connect with people, and to actually kind of form friendships as a result of that. And like I said, before, then met my long term partner, and we're both introverts, and we live, you know, kind of together. So when I was single, it was about it was easier to connect with, I don't even know if it's connected, really. But that kind of, you know, that hook up where it doesn't matter if you're not going to see them again.

Coach Maddox  27:08  
What I,

Jonathan Lee  27:12  
what I hadn't done much in my life kind of formed friendships and actually, you know, having been able to talk to people, and you know, and part of that I think, is about my confidence, or my introverted some if that's the word or, you know, you know, because I'm never good at networking and stuff like that. But also, it's also something like that emotional connection with people. And yeah, and I think this is the fulfillment that I have now is that however, I've done it, I, I've pushed myself and I've been able to do that. But it hasn't been easy. And and I've only really now just got to that point.

Coach Maddox  27:51  
I think you're describing something that's extremely common in our community, as GBT Q men, I think that it is much easier, I can look back at times in my life, when it was much easier to make a physical connection through six than it was, you know, I, most people in my life have heard me say, you know, we, we crave emotional intimacy. And at the same time, it scares the shit out of us. scares us bad enough that we'll go without, you know, even though we're trying to get some little shred of something that looks or feels like emotional intimacy through the act of sex with a stranger. It's like this little hit of, of dopamine or whatever. But it wears off very quickly. And so we got to go back and find another partner and do it again to try to get that little hit and what we're, I mean, I've thought for years that when we're doing that, whoever it is, I could look back and see this is what I was doing. And I think this is probably true of a lot of GBT Q men, is there seeking something where it doesn't live. You know, I can look back and see what I was really wanting was connection. What I was really wanting was emotional intimacy. And when we think of emotional intimacy, we sometimes pigeonhole that and think that's all about a primary relationship, a partner, a lover, a spouse. But truthfully, emotional. Intimacy is something that happens with anybody in our life that we take the time to close with family members, friends, we can have emotional intimacy with anyone we choose. And it's at the same time, yes, it's scary. It takes courage to put yourself out there and get close to somebody. Because, you know, for most of us, I think the fear is, wow, if I get close to him, and then they walk, I mean, you just experienced this two years ago, 20 years ago, you me was the first one that you Really opened your heart to. And then one day during sex, he tells you, he's breaking up with you. That's bone crushing. And I think it's one of our biggest fears is that we'll put ourselves out there really open ourselves up, let somebody come into our heart, and then they'll just crush us.

Jonathan Lee  30:20  
And it happens. Mm hmm. Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I think that's right. And you mentioned family there as well. And for me, that's another big thing of my 40th year and kind of, again, up until that point, I'd always felt different to my family. And there's a reason I am very different to them. But I've learned that that's okay. And I can still have a relationship with them. And it's Yeah, and, you know, the fact that our views or, or the way we think is different, doesn't stop me being part of my family. So that was, yeah, that was important as well.

Coach Maddox  31:02  
And as you have opened up to your family and and shared a little bit of emotional intimacy with them, what's happened?

Jonathan Lee  31:10  
We've got closer. Yeah, wow. Yeah. So I went, Yeah, we went on a family holiday. And at first, the idea that it was, you know, it gave felt like, it was going to be a lot of compromise. And it was, but there was also some, yes, he said, you know, lovely moments that we kind of shared within that. And my last year, actually, I've just moved, and I've been living with my dad for, for about 10 months. And that's been really special. I mean, he's, you know, he's in his late 70s. Now, and I know that he's not going to be around together, you know, forever. And that just feels like really kind of precious time that we've kind of spent together. And, you know, and we haven't been into meals at the table, you know, we've been kind of living in almost different parts of the house. And, and every so often, we just kind of pass, but I've experienced because he, my parents split up when I was 11. So I'd hadn't lived with him, you know, until until a year ago for, you know, 30 odd years, or however long it is. And just, you know, just, yeah, little exchanges that we kind of had, and it was lovely. And I yeah, I kind of feel closer to him, you know, as a result of.

Coach Maddox  32:26  
Yeah, that's beautiful. You know, as as scary as emotional intimacy is, it's it is, it's really a necessary thing for us to thrive. Through reasons of joy and happiness and fulfillment and to thrive. We need emotional intimacy. I know that for me, things really changed when I stopped trying to get met through meaningless sex. Mm hmm.

Jonathan Lee  32:55  
Yeah, and it's, I mean, what I realized was, was a how much time I'd spent, like on social media apps, and, you know, and if I'd probably invested that amount of time in friendships or kind of, you know, things that I'm going to get more joy out of, which is kind of what I'm doing now. And actually, I'm happier for it. But talking about obsession, it almost became an obsession, you know, it was the first thing I would do when I'd wake up in the morning, I would log in, and, you know, just see who's there. You know, and it would be the last thing that I did at nighttime in terms of kind of checking my phone. And it's, it's, it's an artificial world, and in many ways, and depending on where you are in the country, you know, it's so easy to get sex. And I think as a result of that, because it's so easy. It's kind of taken any meaning or, you know, anything special out of that in terms of, you know, actually kind of meeting up with somebody the fact that is, you know, you can just have it on demand.

Coach Maddox  34:00  
I agree with you completely. Jonathan, I love what you just said about it's an artificial world because that's absolutely true. And I see it that way. I don't I'm sure there's some people that would disagree with that. However, you know, when we're continually seeking something day after day after day, there's something missing in our lives.

Jonathan Lee  34:22  
Yeah. Yes. I mean, don't get me wrong. Yeah, absolutely. And in some ways, it's great. And I'm and I'm, I still, you know, go on there and I will still kind of hook up with guys

but the facts with shoot a few chosen words, you know, in a couple of, you know, kind of pictures. Yeah, I think that's that's a bit which feels artificial to me.

Coach Maddox  34:50  
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, not to say that there's anything wrong with those apps or the the way that people use them. There's not a ever But he has to live their own life. So I'm not here in judgment of that. But I think we do those things. It's it's it's not the thing itself. It's the unhealthy motivation behind it. It's the culprit. Yeah, yeah. That's what we kind of need to look at sometimes. So I know, because we spoke previously, that somewhere in all this, you are prompted to, of course, write a book. So why don't you tell me a little bit about that?

Jonathan Lee  35:36  
Yeah, well, what I've been talking about is really the book because it's my kind of 40th year. So starting from me waking up

in, you know, my house, you know, I don't I kind of went to visit on holiday. And basically, yeah, I was, you know, it was my birthday. So all the attention was on me, and then kind of, you know, being in that kind of dark place in terms of recently being broken up. And then in terms of me that obsessional behavior and the kind of depression or grief that I was kind of experiencing, to then be moving on, with the changes that I made to my appearance, to then entering the dating and the kind of hookup world before then real, before realizing actually, that's not what's important to me. And then me trying out different activities, you know, I kind of went pole dancing, I went kind of rock climbing. So it was kind of me experiencing that. And also going on three different holidays. So that holiday with my family, a holiday with myself, which I've never done before. So kind of that kind of daunting moment of getting on the plane and kind of interned on your own and you know, in a restaurant, and then my mate the other holiday, which was with two gay friends. So it was yeah, so that's what the book is. It's basically my 40th year. And it kind of talks about the journey that I went through went through what? into place.

Coach Maddox  37:21  
There's been a lot of growth and all this for you, hasn't there?

Jonathan Lee  37:24  
The hands? Yeah, I truly believe that has, what we've not talked about is i i counseling during that time. Yeah. So I think just having that kind of safe space and looking at looking at my relationship with Grindr looking at my real relationship with friends, or, you know, looking at me within a relationship. Yeah, and kind of just unpicking that. And then me, being able to see it, and then choosing what I'm going to keep, and then looking at, you know, and changing what I wanted to change. So yeah, knows that as well.

Coach Maddox  38:09  
Well, and I think you told me that you didn't really set out to write a book, is that correct?

Jonathan Lee  38:15  
Absolutely. It was very therapeutic.

Not I mean, I've written I've kind of book person, but it was my way of trying to make sense of my feelings. So yeah, so it was literally just me jotting down. And from that, obviously, I edited it in order to, you know, to be a novel, but just sharing that with a couple of close friends. And they were like, actually, this is so relatable. And I, you know, I It's out exactly how you, you know, what you're describing, you know, and they were saying you need to kind of publish this. But I think because it wasn't written with the intention for other people to hear at first. I think it is. I mean, it's, it's very raw, it's very real. I probably don't come across that well, and you know, but that's not what it's about. It's some, you know, and actually, I've had some really lovely feedback where I've had some people say, I've deleted Grindr after reading your book, I realized to how much of an obsession it was and how much time I've spent on there. Or and other people who have just experienced a breakup and they've said it's really helped them normalize their behavior and kind of you know, and kind of think about what they want to do in terms of next steps. So that's been really lovely to to kind of have

Coach Maddox  39:42  
I think the beautiful thing about basically your journal or diary becoming the book is the book isn't about you looking good. Hmm. You know, a lot of it you don't look so so great. You were going through There's some really rough stuff. And I think that's what makes it so relatable. You know, nowadays, there's so much of our social media, where people just show you exactly what they want you to see. Yeah, see that? The perfect family or the perfect relationships, or you don't see the messiness. And we've gotten to where we compare ourselves to the fake lives of people that are on Facebook, putting forth just only the sparkly parts, and covering up all the warts. And it's given us a skewed view of what reality is. And we're all trying to live up to our, our Facebook friends that had these obviously, fabulous lives. Not, but that's the way it looks. And I think that's been a tough thing for our our whole world. I think anybody that's in social media, if you're not really, really careful about the way you're, if you're comparing yourself to these, I mean, that's not real Facebook's not

Jonathan Lee  41:07  
absolutely, absolutely. Your your, you know, you're just getting highlights of someone's day or week or kind of year. And but but because you're probably seeing that multiple times by different people, it's like, well, everyone's doing that. And you know, and yeah, and then it can be so hard to kind of compare yourself, I suppose, and what you know, to make that comparison. Yeah. And yeah, I don't know, that. I think social media, again, is great, but it's it's about having a measurable and to kind of Yeah, not to have that as your,

Coach Maddox  41:46  
you know, only referent assault. Yeah. And, and use it with respect, you know, anything can be good or bad in our lives, depending on the way we

Jonathan Lee  41:59  
we use it. Yeah, that's true.

Coach Maddox  42:03  
Whether it's money or friendships, we can we can approach anything for all the wrong reasons. So Jonathan, what are the listeners? men that are relating to you right now, men that have gone through something similar to what you've gone through? What would be the words of wisdom that you would like to share with them? That, that that thing that made such a difference for you? Some choice you made? Or some process you did?

Jonathan Lee  42:45  
I think what's, I mean, what works for me is going to be different for for other people. I think, I mean, if we're talking about how to overcome a relationship, then I think it's about it's probably don't do what I did, or not, for the first four months anyway. And actually, you know, it's so easy to not go out and to kind of stay in your pajamas and eat, you know, and all of that. But I think it is about kind of forcing yourself to do stuff. And I yeah, I believe we've all got that innate ability to kind of improve and to develop and to kind of learn. So I think it's about tapping into that, and just trying different things and, you know, kind of been around, you know, positive people who are going to bring bring out the best best review. But also learning about what, what needs to be there in order for you to be comfortable in your own skin. Yeah, and I know, that's a bit funny for me to say that after me, you know, doing those kinds of kind of changes. And you know, but I guess I guess that's, again, kind of don't do what I did. Well, let's do it. Like what we're doing. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  44:07  
I mean, when you step back and look at it, it was the means to the end, you did those things, and they brought you full circle. So although we could look at that and say, Wow, that was bad. Maybe not. It was just it was the stepping stones that you needed to get to where you are now. Yeah, yeah. You know, I know for me, I have trained myself that when the proverbial shit hits the fan, whatever that looks like an ended relationship or some financial disaster, it doesn't matter what's going down. when the shit hits the fan. One of the first questions I asked myself, I'll go in and find a mirror and look in the mirror and say, Okay, what do I need to do now to take care of me? cuz, you know, let's just face it when when that shit hits the fan rarely is there anyone around pick the pieces that we're on our own most

Jonathan Lee  45:10  
of the time. Hmm, yeah.

Coach Maddox  45:13  
And that's when I believe self care really plays a really, really big role. And we have to stop and ask ourselves as we're making choices, okay, is this really taking care of myself as being on this app and having, you know, random sex to avoid dealing with my, my pain of a broken relationship? Is this really serving me we have to ask those hard questions of ourselves. Yeah,

Jonathan Lee  45:38  
yeah. I bet that resilience that you're kind of talking about, is actually a really powerful and kind of a really good thing, isn't it? Do you not? I mean, you know, how you learn that? And but you know, to be able to? Yeah, to do that is really good.

Coach Maddox  45:56  
Yeah, that ability to stop and say, Okay, now what, what I do now, is the buck stops with us. when the shit hits the fan, the buck almost always stops with us. So what am I going to do to pull myself up by the bootstraps? And not just survive? But thrive?

Jonathan Lee  46:13  
Oh, Allah like that. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  46:15  
You know, we kind of I hear people every day say, Oh, I'm a survivor. Oh, I don't ever say those words. ever claimed to be a survivor had a very wise woman say to me one time, as long as you're claiming to be a survivor, the universe must throw shit at you that you have to survive. Mm hmm. And I got it. I got it in a really profound way. I don't want to be a survivor. Oh, my God. No, I want to be a thriver Hmm. So what do I need to thrive? And we figure it out. If we start asking the right questions, we come up with the right answers. And you're a perfect example of that.

Jonathan Lee  46:55  
Thank you. I mean, I'm still learning and I'm still you know, you know. But yeah, but I, I there has been a lot of change from from that 40th year, I think,

Coach Maddox  47:07  
ya know, we're always learning. You know, don't I don't we don't ever want to get to the point where we're, we arrived. Yeah, we've got to have some journey to go on. Well, this has been wonderful. Jonathan, I love to hear your story. I, I just want to my hat's off to you. I want to take a bow and applaud you for because you did go through what many would call the dark night of the soul? Yeah, and four months is a long time to stay in that dark place.

Jonathan Lee  47:45  
Yeah, and I think that's where, why I'm determined now to kind of sounds a bit cheesy, but to almost live the best life that, you know, for me, because I think what wasted year, you know, what wasted time in terms of either trying to find a relationship, which then didn't kind of manifest or be what I thought it was going to be, or that, that kind of, I wonder what he's doing now, you know, and just that, that that headspace that I was in. And I think if I add all of that up, I dread to think actually what I've lost. And I think that's where that determination is now for me to think right. Well, what can I do? You know, but by myself, what can I do with you know, just me? Yeah, so I'm really, really looking forward to that.

Coach Maddox  48:34  
Yeah, I know. That's wonderful. You know, you have taken you know, the you've you've taken a bad situation and turn it into a winning story. Yeah, yeah. Wonderful. Thank you. Well, how about some rapid fire questions? So question number one, what are you most afraid of?

Jonathan Lee  49:06  
Spiders. She was the first thing that came into my head. Oh, yeah. What fit? What kind of scares me?

Coach Maddox  49:20  
It probably would have been

Jonathan Lee  49:20  
something like this. But you do. I mean, the fact is, is that I've kind of I've kind of pushed myself a lot now. So um, yeah.

Coach Maddox  49:35  
So are you saying that it would have been, you would have had a fear of sharing your story, sharing yourself and sharing your story?

Jonathan Lee  49:42  
Yeah. Well, yeah, the idea of talking in public, you know, we're all kind of, you know, talking at an emotional level with somebody, you know, that that would have horrified me.

Coach Maddox  49:56  
You have come a long way.

Jonathan Lee  49:57  
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah,

Coach Maddox  49:59  
this is A definite testament to how far you've come. Yeah, bravo to you. Wow, thank you. What is the one thing that you most wish you could change about the queer male community? If you could wave a magic wand?

Jonathan Lee  50:20  
Well, I guess when we were talking before about holding hands, not everybody's fortunate enough to be able to do that, you know, there's some parts of the world where obviously, it's illegal to be gay.

I guess it would be 24 years ago, and it felt like it was a struggle, then it's less. So I don't think it's, you know, if I was to come out tomorrow, it wouldn't be an issue at all. But that's not the case for everybody. So I think it would almost be for other people to be able to experience it's not a privilege really, is it? Well, you know, that that it should be just a natural thing for anybody. But sadly, it's not. So I think it would be to have that equity that I've experienced, for others to have that too.

Coach Maddox  51:14  
Beautiful. I love that. And final question. Many years from now, you are a ghost at your own funeral. And you're watching the whole thing. And all of your girlfriends are sitting there in the first row. What do you hope they say about you?

Jonathan Lee  51:38  
Oh, that's really quite a good question. When you think about what I'm saying about, you know, my previous fears around no one being at my funeral. So I think they would just like to be I think it'd be about my humor, and I hope, my compassion and probably something which I'm working on, which is about integrity. So I think to be known for those qualities would be would be amazing.

Coach Maddox  52:09  
You know, you said a word then working on my integrity. And I'm always talking about how we as as men need to step up and do our work. And you just set a beautiful example of that. We can be anybody that we choose to be, but we have to do our work in order to get there. Yeah,

Jonathan Lee  52:32  
I mean, it's something that is

Coach Maddox  52:35  
Yeah, no, absolutely. Beautiful. Well, Jonathan, thank you so much. This has been awesome. I've really enjoyed hearing your story. I know the listeners will as well. The one thing I want to leave you with is in my eyes, you are definitely an authentic gay man.

Jonathan Lee  52:54  
Oh, thank you. I'll take that

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