Coach Maddox  0:03  
Hello, Wil Fisher, and welcome to The Authentic Gay Man Podcast. This is your second time to be on the podcast. So it's so great to have you back. And today, we're doing something completely different. Today is going to be a little less about wills story and a little bit more about how he helps other LGBTQ men with their story. So well is the founder of willfully living coaching. And he has a podcast called queerly beloved, and that's not Dearly beloved, that's clearly Beloved. So check it out. It's anywhere where you can find podcasts. There'll be a link for it in the show notes. And our topic today is opening your heart and learning to love yourself. And I'm very excited about this topic. So here we go. Well, do you have anything you'd like to say before we jump into topic,

Wil Fisher  1:03  
I'm so excited to be here. I'm honored to be here. It's a pleasure to be here. So thank you, I enjoyed being with you the first time sharing about my story. And now I'm excited to be here to share some of the wisdom and some of the tools that I've accumulated, that I've collected over over my time over my journey on this planet, to be able to share that with you and your listeners is a real treat for me. So thank you for this opportunity.

Coach Maddox  1:32  
You are most welcome. And I'm just delighted that you were interested in doing this. So So you know, a refresh. I may have said this the first time we recorded but we'll and I met at a gay coach's conference in upstate New York. And we have been there together twice now. And it's been a remarkable opportunity. And yeah, I've met some amazing men, but you and I got to connect a little bit more this time than we did the first time. And that coupled with our podcast episode has kind of made me feel like I kind of know you a little bit more than I did. And that's been a wonderful, wonderful journey.

Wil Fisher  2:18  
I yeah, I want to echo that Maddix and say that, you know, in this last time, it's really fitting that we're having this conversation too, because the last time we were together in May, I remember one of the most profound moments for me was sitting in essentially a heart circle with you. And we were in that circle in a space where we were invited to speak from our hearts and to open our hearts. And it was in that moment where we both spoke more vulnerably about ourselves and about our stories with each other witnessing, probably in a way that the two of us hadn't experienced each other before. And in that moment, our closeness, our bond expanded and grew. And so it's fitting that we're now talking about open heartedness, because I have this really beautiful memory of us being in that open hearted space just a couple months ago and having that connection,

Coach Maddox  3:16  
you know, recounting that has caused me to have flashbacks. And as I'm experiencing those flashbacks, I've got chills just running in waves up and down my body. And I'm actually feeling I'm having a moment. I'm feeling very touched right now. Because it was in that moment, you know, when when you opened up and went to that vulnerable space. It was like, Oh, I like him. No, it was like before that is didn't really know you enough to determine whether or not I liked you. But in that moment, there was just this, this bridge and this connection. It was like, wow, I didn't see that coming. You know, I don't know about you. But I'm so used to being in a room full of gay men that they, they they're just armored up. And they don't get vulnerable and they don't share themselves. It's a rare, rare thing. And when I'm in a space where a gay man does get vulnerable like that, it just, it literally blows my socks off, blows my bangs back, whatever. I guess those are all terms now. But it does. And that was yeah, that was a great experience.

Wil Fisher  4:37  
And likewise, you opened up and were very vulnerable in that moment as well. And I got to see you in a way that I hadn't seen you before. I got to experience your heart. I got to experience I would say more of the truth of who you are because of the vulnerability because of the open heartedness that we were both in in that moment. And it's also beautiful that It just reflecting back to it opens our hearts. Right? Just having that moment like, we go back, we flashback to it. And suddenly we're back in that state of open heartedness where the love is flowing through where the vulnerability is possible.

Coach Maddox  5:14  
Yeah, you know, it's, it's hard when you don't have the visual, but if the if the listeners could see us right now, we're both just glowing. You can see our aura it, we're just glowing right now, because we're back momentarily, in that sacred space where there's so much love and so much connection and so much respect. And so many things that I find are often missing in our day to day life in our own community. Tell me a little bit about what is it that it you know, just expanding on that experience of each of us getting vulnerable sitting in that circle? What do you think happens in that moment? And why is it that that opening up that opening your heart and getting vulnerable? draws us so close to each other? Yeah,

Wil Fisher  6:07  
that's a beautiful question. There is so much power and vulnerability, there's so much openness that happens in that state, when we soften into our emotions, when we connect with our hearts and allow them to feel we enter into a vibration that connects with others in that vibration, in a way that otherwise we have walls separating us. So it is a beautiful connectivity, vibration that comes when we soften into that emotional body when we when we soften into the heart space. And when we allow the love to flow through, and sometimes that love is expressed in joy. But sometimes with that heart circle, when I think about it, that the love was actually expressed in some sorrow, right? The vulnerability was coming through in some pain, but it was still an expression of love. And when we both were in that open hearted expression of love, we're able to connect in that deeper way.

Coach Maddox  7:17  
Absolutely. You know, I have a friend, we've been friends for about, I guess, maybe four and a half years now. And I have been just loving him and supporting him to come to a place of vulnerability. We're close. And so he opens up and tells me a lot about his life. But he's stoic, you know, he's not one to get emotional. He's not one, to feel a lot of feelings or express a lot of feelings. And I've been just holding space for him. And I've keep keep encouraging him to get in touch with his feelings, to let himself fully feel his feelings, and then to let himself express those feelings in the form of laughter or tears or whatever it, it looks like. And I just continue holding space time past, I continue being patient. And this last New Year's Eve, he was in a relationship. And on New Year's Eve, the boyfriend broke up with him. And he called me a couple of days later, crying, I'd never seen him cry, I'd never seen him. You know, I would say to him, you know, I would cry. And when I would cry, I could feel him crying on the inside because we're close. But he would never cry on the outside. And I'd say, you know, I know you're crying on the inside, right? Because I know, you know, but for the first time, he just let it out. He was fully in the feelings and he was expressing them. And, you know, I waited until he had gotten it all out. And I said, What does it feel like even though you're in intense pain right now? What does it feel like to be vulnerable with me right now and share all that with me? And he said, Oh my god, I finally get it. Let me get why you've been holding space for me for so long, and why you've been encouraging me and I couldn't. I didn't know I didn't understand. But now having experienced it, I get it. Well, you know, here we are. We've just started the eighth month of the year. And we he and I talk weekly, and he's still very much staying in that vulnerable state and expressing his feelings because when he got it, he really got it like he got how valuable this is vulnerability is. Well, it to me. It's like a tool to me. I mean, what I say is vulnerability, builds bridges, clears pathways and opens up doors in a way that nothing else can.

Wil Fisher  9:56  
Mm hmm. Thank you beautiful. Yeah, and you know that The this false story that folks tell themselves is that they don't allow their emotions to be felt because they're protecting themselves. And the truth is that by doing that they're actually inflicting harm on themselves, because they're holding that negative energy inside their bodies, instead of allowing it to flow through and be released. So I like to describe emotions as energy in motion, right. And so it's one thing to talk about things that are upsetting us. But if we're not feeling them, we're not moving that energy. And that energy is just staying stuck in us. And so when we finally have that embodied experience, when we're able to release a motion, right, that the catharsis that we experienced, after a big deep sobbing cry, to feel that release, and to feel physically how it feels to be moved through that experience, and to come out the other side, feeling lighter, feeling more at ease, feeling like you've let go of something heavy, right? The more that we're able to experience that the more that we can trust, that that's how we actually protect ourselves and our energy, not by holding it in, but right by releasing it out. And we trust that we can move through it that we have the courage and the resilience, that we will move through it, it will end and we will be bigger, brighter, stronger, more resilient on the other side of it. Every time. Every time I I've never experienced the time. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  11:33  
You know, I think that so many of us got messages at an early time in our life, that vulnerability was weakness. And it's hard for us we've been ingrained with that it's hard for us to let go of that. And I love your conversation about energy in motion, because when that stays stuck in our body, it creates disease, which becomes disease. And, I mean, I've had people in my life that have died of a disease. And I could I could unpack that in my mind, and know exactly why they went down the way they did. Because you could tell they were i i sense people, I'm an empath. And so I sent so many things, and I can feel all that stuff trapped in people. And it's not a, it's not a healthy thing.

Wil Fisher  12:29  
Absolutely. And it cuts us off from the positive emotions too. If we're restricting ourselves from feeling our emotions, not only were you not experiencing the sadness, or the anger that we're trapping inside, and then having it causes ease, but we're not fully experienced our happiness, our delight, our joy, our connection, our love, right, and that's the magic of opening our hearts is then we have access to all the emotions, and we get to access them through love, no matter what emotion it is, it is an expression of love. And we can imbue it with love and experienced as love. And then, you know, I can go on to talk about that, ultimately, being an experience of God. But I don't want to get ahead of myself. Unless you're ready to go there.

Coach Maddox  13:17  
You know, it will it will Yes, we will go there it definitely is isn't unfolding. So I'm thinking about how throughout my life, I've experienced it being so difficult to connect with other gay men. I think that we oftentimes default to sexual connection because it's, it's the only way we find to be able to connect with another. We're so armored up and so afraid to open our hearts, that we open our bodies. And we connect through sex, which I don't know there came a point in my life where that just wasn't it anymore. It just it just wasn't it it meaningless sex made me feel left me feeling worse, rather than than better. I mean, I there was a point where I just wrote it off. And I went for years with as celibate because I just couldn't do the meaningless thing anymore.

Wil Fisher  14:20  
That's the key word there, right? It's meaningless sex because there is such thing as gay sex, which is heart centered, where our hearts are connected to our Cox where we're actually experiencing love and open heartedness in the act of sex. But it's a very courageous act. Right. But

Coach Maddox  14:37  
that requires that opening of the heart. Talk a little bit more about the connection that that happens, you know, the are open. There's so many benefits to us, opening our heart and what it what happens inside of us. But then there's this open heart that draws other people to you and and makes an emotional intimacy possible. Speak to that, if you will?

Wil Fisher  15:14  
Well, I believe that open heartedness is a magnetizer. Because ultimately, that is what people see. That is what people want. They know that their truth is to be open hearted to be in their hearts, that the truth of who they are, is that and so someone who is embodying that, who is walking through the world with an open heart is going to be attractive to others who are seeking that who are seeking the truth. And the flip side of that is for some people, it's going to be very scary, they're going to see that and want to run away, because they're not ready to open that heart.

Coach Maddox  15:52  
I think you're right. I mean, I've come to where I now just state that true vulnerability is a polarizer. Yes, it either draws people to you like a moth to flame, or it sends them screaming and running in the opposite direction, metaphorically, of course. But the cool thing about it is, in my experience, and I'm not talking about some book knowledge, now I'm talking about in my experience, because I've learned how to really do the vulnerability thing, it comes now pretty easy for me. And I realized that it doesn't just draw any people to me, it draws the right people, to me, it draws the people to me that I most want to draw to me, all on its own without me having to do anything else. And it sends the people that I probably wouldn't really want to be with, it sends them away. It has this magical thing about it. It's it's self selecting.

Wil Fisher  16:52  
Yes, that's right. Yes. And the vibration that we're resonating at is going to connect people vibrating at that similar connection. So it works on all levels. But certainly, yeah, in this framework of vulnerability. Yeah. It's powerful. It's magical. It's helpful.

Coach Maddox  17:09  
It's, it's amazing. What would you say? What was the point in your experience where you suddenly realized it was time to open your heart?

Wil Fisher  17:27  
Yeah, great question. And I would say that some of it came from the invitation of me to step into my power. And recognizing that being in my heart was where my true power lie. So recognizing that I could, and this really happened when I when I served as the executive director of Eastern Mountain. So I had taken this role, which was a big role for me to step into what Eastern Mountain is that retreat center, the LGBTQ retreat center in upstate New York, where, where Maddox and I were at the gate coaches conference together, so I served as their executive director. And when I stepped into that role, I was in my 30s, and younger than most of the other staff and the board members. And I had not had that level of a role before. And so I was very intimidated, and didn't really know what my power was or how to embody it. And I was actually in a workshop with with Joe Weston, who's a teacher of mine, shout out to Joe Weston, and we were doing these exercises that helped us experience an embodiment of power. That was true power that was not power over. But that was power from within. And it was all imbued with love. And the way that we were able to fully experience that was through connecting with our hearts. And it was sort of a chicken in the egg to because the more that I connected with my heart, the more I was able to step into my power, the more I was able to step into my power, the more I was able to connect with my heart. And so I would say that that was sort of a, you know, there were certainly moments of open heartedness throughout my life. You know, of course, like from me being a baby, up to now i, and especially as a child, because we walked through this world, naturally open hearted, but I'd say the moment that I became more conscious of it, conscious of it as a choice, conscious of it as a practice as something that I could choose to step into. And that as an adult, living in this world full of challenges and struggles. The default is for us to have it closed. And so it wasn't just a choice, but it's a choice that I'm making on a regular basis that goes against the norm that goes against me What most others are doing?

Coach Maddox  20:02  
You are absolutely, absolutely right. We are swimming against the stream when we open our hearts because it's not the the natural way of the masses. Most of us are, you know, straight gay, male, female doesn't matter, we're armored up. Because the world in so many ways doesn't feel safe. And I had a real breakthrough in that about two years ago, when I realized that I had been looking for safety in all the wrong places like the old song looking for love in all the wrong places. I was looking for people that would hold safe space for me. And the more I looked, the more elusive they became. And it was the breakthrough came when I realized one day that the safety that I had sought, all of my life was not outside of me, it was inside of me, and I was responsible for that safety, nobody else could provide that for me, I had to provide it for myself. But the interesting thing was when I stood up and took that responsibility, and said, Okay, gotcha, I got you, I'm going to keep you safe. Then safety began to show up in the external world around me. Who I didn't see that coming.

Wil Fisher  21:32  
Beautiful. Yeah, and I see that with a lot of my clients, that their external circumstances shift, as soon as they shift what's going on inside, you know, they've got a brother that's always bullying them, and then suddenly, they own their worth and their power. And then they, they noticed that the brothers not behaving like that anymore. And it's not because anything they did, or said, it's simply that they have shifted their energy, and the story that they had about that relationship, and now the brothers energy has shifted as well. And he's not showing up in that way, either.

Coach Maddox  22:10  
I had an experience very much like that, with my brother, there was a shift where I didn't really do anything. And then there was part of the shift where I did say some things and make some conversation. And we've never really had much of a relationship and our entire lives. And now we do beautiful as a result of me stepping into that place of power and speaking my truth, and we have a better relationship than we've ever had. Beautiful. So I'm curious, when did this take place that Joey Joe Weston, Joe Wang, and and that trance that that shift when you you opened up? When was that?

Wil Fisher  22:48  
That was? Let's see, that was about 10 years ago, about a decade ago? Yeah, yeah, when I really started to understand what it meant to be open hearted, and to choose the open hearted path. And one of the things that Joe shares that I found really helpful is that it wasn't about going from closed hearted, to open hearted. And then instead of being closed hearted, all the time, being open hearted all the time, what it was, was about being more aware, having a deeper awareness of how open or closed my heart was, and then upgrading from an on off switch, right, open hearted or closed hearted, to a dimmer switch, where I get to decide, Oh, let's see, I feel pretty safe right now with this person, I'm gonna open my heart a little more. And then I get to challenge myself based on the safety that I feel, which is, as you mentioned, so wisely comes from within, like, I get to claim my safety. I get to choose from that place, how open I want my dimmer switch to be or how it close based on the circumstances and the safety that I feel or don't feel.

Coach Maddox  24:01  
I love that it's a continuum. It's

Wil Fisher  24:05  
not black and white.

Coach Maddox  24:06  
It's a spectrum. Yeah. Beautiful.

Wil Fisher  24:10  
Yeah. So that's been really helpful. And then yeah, I mean, perhaps we could talk a little bit more about the armor that that you keep mentioning, because that's really what gets in the way of us being open hearted, right is all this armor that we've put up?

Coach Maddox  24:25  
I can remember literally having to dismantle the armor once at a time. I mean, it was it was certainly metaphorically but I could literally could feel myself kind of like peeling the plates of armor on. And it too was a process. It didn't happen. overnight. I had to. Every time I was in a situation where I felt this urge to armor up I had to stop and go within for a minute and reassure myself that it was safe that I had my own back. No, and then I didn't need to armor up here that it was an interesting journey but such a fruitful one. So yes, yes talk, we'll talk more about the whole armor thing because I think that's so common. And it's, it's not something that we talk about, we're all armored up and we're all sitting around in the st. We're either at, you know the same party or the same bar or the same drag bridge or wherever we are, you know, and we're, we're armored up, you know what, what makes me talk about this is for the last year, I have, I started in first by myself and then gained a new boyfriend and he jumped on board, we host social gatherings a lot. And they're very much they're not parties. They are very much about bringing people together for a very specific purpose. And it's about connection. And although there's a little bit of food on the table, and there's certainly some adult beverages in the room, that is not the focus, people come. And they come because it's about connection. And we take people through a series of things that helps them connect, not like a workshop, but just enough structure to get the engagement and the energy going. And we've done, you know, themes we've done, you know, some that were just random group of friends. And then we did one that was all gay men. And then we did one that was all women. And, you know, we did one last month that was for creatives. And this This month, we're working on one that's going to be for all entrepreneurs. So they got themes. But one of the things that I've noticed most of our parties have at least a percentage of gay and lesbian people at them, they're usually a smaller percentage, because we had we know and have more straight friends than we do gay friends. But the one that we hosted that was all gay men. Oddly, out of all of our somebody came back to me lately, what am I gay, for instance, said I'd love to know, how was the gay one was? Was it the same? Or was it different? I said it was different. It was very different. How was it different? And I said, well, the gay man showed up, most of them armored up. They were very, very hesitant to talk to each other, it was hard to get him to engage. We could get our other guests engaged with no problem at all. But it was like dentists pulling teeth, to get them to engage. The energy in the room was the lowest energy of any of the parties with it, that one gay only gay male only party was the lowest energy of and we've thrown practically a dozen parties at this point. Over the last 10 or 11 months, whatever it is. And then we do some online stuff as well. But I, you know, there's this obvious difference, yet, I'm not exactly sure what needs to happen. To get on the other side of it. Yeah, we could crack that code, we would be, you know, we'd be more important than Harvey Milk or somebody. Yeah,

Wil Fisher  28:32  
yeah. No, it's true. And well, first of all, I want to acknowledge you and Dwight, for being such powerful community organizers. It's such a gift that you guys are gathering people together that the medicine of community is so needed, and so important and to be champions of that and offering that is such a gift for your community. So,

Coach Maddox  28:51  
thank you. Well, it has been an amazing year. We are loving it. And we're pretty clear. It's It's like what we're supposed to be doing beautiful. We're we're working to turn it into, you know, like a company.

Wil Fisher  29:06  
Cool. That's fabulous. I have no doubt you guys will do that with incredible success. So going back to this, this question, which I was picking up was, what is it about gay men or GPT Q people in general that has them struggling more than others with opening their hearts with connecting with their hearts? What is it about us has more armored up than our heterosexual counterparts? And my belief is that we we are often naturally more sensitive beings that walk the planet not not across the board you know, I don't want to stereotype but often you when you talk to gay men, they will share that they were very emotional sensitive little boys. So we start off very Yes, yeah, I can relate was definitely me. And we start off very sensitive and emotional. And we are moving through this world with our big open hearts. And then this world says you are not valid, your desires are our sinful, right, and we start hearing this story that we can't be our true selves. And so we start from a young age, when we're getting that message, closing off our heart closing off our heart, it's connection to it's true as desires, right, that's what our heart holds, is our desires. And so we start putting walls up, because we can't allow the world to see those desires, because we will be ostracized, right, and so our blocking our walls, and our facades of our truth start at a young age. And then for many of us, we eventually come to terms with Oh, I am gay. And actually, I can be gay in this world. And I can come back to the desire that is in my hearts. And so we take the courage courageous act to come out. And then we often are met with a new slew of attacks that we have to put our armors up, sometimes that is in the form of, we fall in love. And we get to experience this beautiful heart opening, and then we are heartbroken. And so we say, Oh, my God, see, the world is not safe, or we are attacked by our own community, right, other gay men, putting us down or being abusive. And so once again, we have this new understanding that it is not safe for us to walk through the world with an open heart. And we walk instead with this armor up, that gets in the way of us connecting in real ways, right gets in the way of us being in this beautiful space that you guys have created, that it feels unsafe to gay men where it wouldn't if it were a mixed crowd,

Coach Maddox  31:55  
you know, well, you're you're really telling my story. And I think it's the story of many of us. You know, as a kid, I was bullied unmercifully by the boys. I was bullied by the teachers, and I was bullied by the coaches. And when I finally came out at age 24, I was like, Oh, my God, it's everything's gonna be okay. I found my people, you know. And then in my first year of being out, I had gay men treat me so poorly, that I, I armored up, I closed off, I armored up, I made the I the decision and the belief that gay men were not safe. And I carried that with me for over 40 years before I begin to push through some of that. I just wish that there was a way to help men let go of that to step free of that. I'm, I've looked at it and talked about it so much. And I still feel like, I'm nowhere near and I found my answer. But I don't I don't feel like I have the answer for the community

Wil Fisher  33:17  
at large. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's a big mission to take on. But I will share from my experience of working with gay men, one on one, or in gay groups, a lot of it is being really transparent and upfront about some of the story I just told that it makes sense that you would have this armor up, it makes sense that we have been objectified by our fellow gay brothers, that we've been abused by our fellow gay brothers. And that before that, we were told this story that we were sin sins, right? So it makes sense that we would be caring this right to acknowledge it to help them understand what might be happening for them. And then to acknowledge that there is another way that there is another choice and to create this space where that choice starts to feel more safe, right? Because ultimately, what requires what is required of connecting with our heart is for our nervous systems be regulated enough that we feel safe enough to make that choice, right. So your example I love you talking about you, having that experience of stripping off the armor and repeatedly telling yourself No, I am safe enough. I can be open I can be trusting I can connect with my heart I can feel my emotions, but you had to tell yourself that again and again and again until it finally your nervous system. Your your whole system could learn that new pattern that new behavior, but it was practice, right it was learning it creating the new neural pathways and learning a new way forward and Then finally, your system has caught up to know that that old way of keeping yourself protected with air quotes all the time was not actually protecting you, and that you can move through the world in this more open hearted, more heart centered, connected way that is a, I, in my opinion, a much healthier, much happier, much truer way of moving through the world. You know,

Coach Maddox  35:27  
I look back and realize that when I was armored up, I was cutting myself off from everything and every one. And and while it protected me on some level it it just it closed me off from all the whole happiness and joy of of life and the world. Yeah, when I could take responsibility for that safety and say, I don't have to be armored up to be safe. What I have to do is I have to be willing to do whatever it takes to kick take care of that little boy that lives inside of me. And that's on a moment to moment basis. You know, rather than just saying, well, I'll just put this armor on and never take it off. It was taking the armor off. But realizing that if and when I needed I had a sword in my back pocket.

Wil Fisher  36:19  
Yeah, yeah. And remembering the dimmer switch, right? That you can, you can be cautious. And if it is necessary, you don't have to always walk through the world with this big open vulnerable heart.

Coach Maddox  36:31  
Exactly. So I have let me formulate my thoughts for a minute. I, I found the world of personal growth and awareness work when I was maybe 2919 85. A long fucking time ago. And I have pursued that with a vengeance is the sound go? And I I don't often Of course, you know, being in an association of gay coaches I do now. But prior to that, it's a rare, rare, rare thing for me to meet another GBT Q man who is doing their work. Like, it feels like our community like, like, puts their hands up like, nope, not interested in that not going there. Can you speak to that what your experience is or how you see that? It just feels like I meet so few men that are willing to go there. I'm always talking about you got to do in every episode of saying you got to do your work. It's not for you, you got to do your work.

Wil Fisher  37:51  
I mean, I think it's twofold. I think that part of it is that the airmen, right, I think that men are less inclined to do the internal work that we're less that men are generally less inclined to talk about their emotions and to connect with their emotions. And that is, in part because we've been conditioned to believe that men are supposed to be stoic and serious and not have emotions, right. That's what the society has taught us is a strong man. And so part of it is fighting against that. And then secondarily, with gay men, I think that there is a lot of wounding. And so it's very scary to face that it's very intimidating, to approach what feels like it could bring us back to this, these moments of total trauma and despair. When we know as people working in this profession, that that's the only way through, that's the only freedom that can be had is when you actually face it and move through it.

Coach Maddox  38:52  
And you spoke of this early in the episode when you talked about standing in your own personal power. That's what we're talking about right now. And you got to in spite of how scary it may be, or how negatively you've been programmed, you have to be willing to take responsibility for your life and your experiences and stand in your power. Speak your truth. Mm hmm. That's right. Everything shifts when that happens. Everything, huh? Yeah. So we've spent a lot of time talking about opening your heart. The other part of of our topic was loving yourself. And you said something to me before we punch the record button, about this natural progression. So I don't think this part of the conversation is probably going to be as robust as the first part was close to our time, but speak a little bit about that aspect of, of the process. As you know, you open your heart and learning to love yourself.

Wil Fisher  40:04  
Well, so when we open our heart, we naturally feel more connected to so many things, we feel more connected to God, we feel more connected to others, we feel more connected to the planet, right? I mean, you've probably experienced things like babies are cute puppies, they help us open our hearts. And then we immediately feel so connected to them, we feel this joy in this beautiful vibration, right? And when we go into nature, and we see these beautiful things, our hearts open, and we feel connected to this beautiful waterfall, right? So opening our hearts creates that connection. And so naturally, it also connects us to ourselves. And it helps us have more compassion for others and for ourselves. And so when we open our hearts when we tap into our hearts, and then we take that inward look, we're able to treat ourselves with more compassion with more love, and we're able to allow that love to grow, we're able to experience the truth of who we are, which is love. And in experiencing that, we expand into more self love. Is that starting to get at what what you're looking for us?

Coach Maddox  41:22  
Yes. Oh, the way you just explained that is truly beautiful. And I just I can feel it in my, my bones. Huh? Well, so any listener that would like to delve into opening their heart and expanding their own self love? What words of wisdom do you have for them? Or maybe what would be a great first step in that something that would just give him a foothold?

Wil Fisher  42:09  
Well, one of the things we didn't get as deep into is this, this thought, right, or this belief that God is love, right? So many believe that God is love. And essentially that all that is all of consciousness is love, right? And so when we really look at opening our hearts, what we're doing in that act, is aligning ourselves with all that is aligning ourselves with God. When you open your heart, you're allowing the flow of love to move through you and put it another way, you could say that you're allowing God to move through you. Right? When you open your heart, you are being love, right? So you are you being one with God. And so in a sense, it's my belief that opening our hearts is a fast path to being one with God, it's a fast path to spiritual expansion. And so I suppose the invitation I would offer is to, to get curious about what it is that's in your path that's getting in the way of you opening your heart to get curious, what is it that you're afraid of? What is it that you're truly afraid might happen if you do that, and to start thinking about how you might be able to release that, or how you might be able to at least face it, and to seek support, you know, it's a it is a courageous act. And when you are facing those things, those demons, those saboteurs those shadows, it is often helpful to have someone by your side to move through that whether it's, you know, a great book with a wisdom or a coach or spiritual advisor or a retreat that focuses on it. But you know, it is a healing process that is required to help us step into this.

Coach Maddox  44:06  
I agree you don't have to go it alone. In fact, you you really probably don't want to go it alone. I want I'm feeling compelled because I know that there are some people that are perhaps triggered by religion or the word God and so I want to suggest that if you're listening to this that you not throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know you can feel one with whatever higher power you believe Yeah, you can feel one with the universe great

Wil Fisher  44:44  
mystery soars goddess God, I love all the words God's just

Coach Maddox  44:50  
with the you know, the divine, so don't get hung up on because he's what he's talking about for some people, maybe tweaking some religious wounds. So I just just kind of wanted to throw it out out there. Because I know for me, there was a point in my life where it was helpful to think in terms of the universe or source or something like that. Now, it's all kind of interchangeable to me. So I will kind of feel somebody out when I'm talking to them or coaching them. And I will relate to them in whatever, you know, mode they're comfortable with. Yeah. Oh, yes. i What a beautiful, beautiful topic. Any thing else you'd like to add? Yeah, I

Wil Fisher  45:37  
mean, you know, just to go back to the question, again, of like, what are some small steps. So the first thing I mentioned, is getting curious about what might be getting in the way and thinking about how you might confront those things. But then, the other step is to, again, choose to be connected to your heart, choose to open your heart. And sometimes what that looks like is, you know, making sure that your nervous system is regulated, and you feel safe, and then doing things that help you feel joy that help you feel connected to who you are, and to your expression of self. And so for me, sometimes that's singing, sometimes that's dancing, sometimes that's walking through nature, things that helped me be in the present moment, and helped me soften into the emotions that that are available to me there. And, and honestly, like, feeling my heart, like putting my hand up to my center of my chest and feeling my heartbeat, and asking my heart what it's feeling, that's been a little tool that has helped me to something as simple as that, actually being with this thing that's beating in our chest. So there's a couple other other possibilities there.

Coach Maddox  46:50  
You know, I think two that you can think about, perhaps, hopefully, everybody has at least one person that they're able to open their heart with. Think about what it is about them, and the dynamic that allows you to open your heart, or are what comes about as a result of you opening your heart to that person. And look at how you can transfer that to other relationships. I went through a period where I was like, Okay, I don't understand why does straight people respond to me one way, like, they just literally eat out of the palm of my hand. You know, I just do so well with straight people. Why do I do so poorly with with gay people, especially men, you know, like, I'm having a completely different experience. And there was this light bulb that went off one day, and I went, Oh, my God, because you're completely different when you're with them, like two completely different people. If you could bring the Maddox that you share with your stripe, friends, if you couldn't bring that Mattox to the space with a gay boys. Something which you have something would change. And it was this lightbulb moment when I thought Why is my experience so different? And I realized while I was bringing a completely different version of me. And when I began to lean in and bring the same Mattox that would play with the straight people to the gay boys, things started to shift dramatically.

Wil Fisher  48:29  
Hmm, yeah, play is such a good access point to connecting with our hearts to I love that. Yeah, play.

Coach Maddox  48:36  
But you know, you got to bring you to the party. Mm hmm. You know, there were times when I just had the awareness that I, I wasn't, I wasn't bringing Maddox to the party. He didn't get invited. Yeah, yeah, you gotta be willing to come to the party and play.

Wil Fisher  48:52  
That's it. That's it. And our hearts are our access point to our true selves. Right. So that's how we connect with our truth is when we connect with our hearts. And so it sounds to me like with the straight folks, it was easier for you to feel safe to connect with your heart and walk through with authenticity in your truth. And with gay men, there is a growth edge there for you. And that you are now discovering that you can be safe to connect with your heart and be in your truth with gay men, which is so much more pleasant.

Coach Maddox  49:23  
It's so much more pleasant. And I would say I'm still on my growth edge. I'm I'm I'm doing great. You know, I mean it's become a lot easier. I don't feel so. I don't I don't feel so endangered when I'm in a room full again, like I did once. You know, I felt like I was the endangered species in the room and I don't feel that way anymore. Yeah, can

Wil Fisher  49:53  
I invite you to consider maybe hosting a heart circle with the gay men in your commute? At some day, and I can give you some parameters around what that looks like, but it would be I imagine good practice for you. And for the men who had come to sit in circle with the clear intention and invitation to share with each other from your hearts.

Coach Maddox  50:18  
I would love that, you know, I've experimented a little bit with that where I didn't give it a name. I didn't call it a heart circle. But I pulled a group of men together and said, you know, would you guys be willing to like play some play a little game, you know, and I asked certain questions, and we, you know, pass the question around the table. Everybody answered it. And we had this discussion. And we spent one whole afternoon doing that. And they were like, Oh, my God, this was amazing. What can we do this again, you know? And it was kind of an I mean, I thought it was going to be just a fun little icebreaker that was going to take about five or 10 minutes, and it ended up being the whole afternoon. But so yeah, parameters would be great. So I would love for you to share with me and I will I've got a group of men that I could absolutely do it with.

Wil Fisher  51:04  
Yeah, people crave to go deeper, and they crave that connection. They just need the invitation and the structure that helps them feel safe in it. And the safety.

Coach Maddox  51:13  
Yes, you could have beautiful Well, well, this has been absolutely amazing. I had no doubt that it would. I came into it with a little bit of apprehension about God. It's a new format. And and I we're winging it, because I'm a winging it kind of guy. Yeah. And it was, it just unfolded so beautifully. Everything that you brought to the conversation was just absolutely fabulous. There's no doubt in my mind that you. You bring some great stuff to your clients. Oh,

Wil Fisher  51:52  
thank you so much in my mind. Thank you. It was a total pleasure to do it. Total pleasure to do it with you. And you're a masterful host. So you were winging it beautifully. And yeah, absolutely. If there are folks who are interested in moving forward on the path to opening their hearts, I do have an offering, which is called the fast path to spiritual expansion, which a big component of it is that is connecting with our hearts. So I'll offer that for free for guests that are referred listeners who can reach out to me at my website, we'll put links in the show notes, I'm sure.

Coach Maddox  52:30  
Yeah. So yeah, take advantage of that. He's offering something wonderful. And if you just mentioned that you heard him on the podcast. It will be on the house. What a beautiful and and generous offering. And, yes, everything that you need will be in the show notes. Well, thank you so much. It's been awesome. My pleasure. Thank you so much.

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