Coach Maddox  0:01  
Hello, John Carl Lewis, and welcome to The Authentic Gay Man Podcast, it's good to see you. This is your third time to be here.

Jon Carl Lewis  0:52  
I'm glad to be back. Always a good time spending time with you coach Maddox.

Coach Maddox  0:56  
Thank you, I feel exactly the same way. So for the listeners that may have not heard the two first times that John Karl was here. One was to share his own story. And you can find that on the podcast web page. The other one was a group discussion that we did with another man, Tony, oh, I'm drawing a blank right now. Anyway, it was a great conversation about how you reconcile sexuality and spirituality. Today, we're going to talk more about what it means to come to peace through a spiritual exploration. Got anything you want to say about that off the top, John curl Well, off the

Jon Carl Lewis  1:47  
off the top. I think it's going to be interesting because I usually talk about sexuality and spirituality. And we did that topic pretty well. And so now we're just going to talk about general spirituality, I hope and how every, every man, every gay man can sort of tap into their own and, and, and find ways to enhance and enhance their lives.

Coach Maddox  2:14  
I know for me, spirituality has played a very big role in my life, probably since the mid 80s. And in the beginning, I wouldn't have even had the language for it. For me, it looked like personal growth. But then there was this point where I really realized that there was a definite spiritual quality to it. I like most people were not I was I wasn't raised in an extremely religious family. But I was certainly exposed to family as a child, we went to church and there was prayer in conversation about God. But I would say most of my life I have identified much more closely with spirituality. But there's a blend because I still believe in God or higher power or the universe, whatever you want to call it. I don't, I'm not a real big prayer person, I'm more of hold intentions, you know, into the universe, put intentions out and hold that intention. So it's been kind of an interesting blend, I take what I want from each and leave what doesn't work for me or, or doesn't? Yeah, what I don't want. So, I think let's start off with what is the relationship? How would you explain the racial relationship, because that's always been something I couldn't really do. I couldn't explain the relationship between religion and spirituality, even though I knew that they were both present in my life.

Jon Carl Lewis  3:50  
Well, I like to think of religion and spirituality in this way. We all have a spirituality, our spirituality. For me, the way I define it is our connection, our connection between our deepest selves and whatever we consider to be ultimate in the universe. That could be a concept of a personal divine, it might not be. There are people who have spirituality without the god concept. But they do have a deep connection with themselves. And a sense of, you know, the fact that all humankind is somehow connected and related. I count those sorts of things as spiritualities and for me religion is is any sort of regular practice you do to enhance your spirituality? Most likely with other people, religion has a very social component. I would argue that Sunday brunch, with your queer friends after, you know a night out dancing is a religious experience sex for some people is a religious experience because what a religion does is it gives tangible form to a spirituality which, by definition is intangible, or at least hard to perceive with the normal five senses.

Coach Maddox  5:42  
I heard somebody wants say that we are all spiritual creatures, whether we're aware of it or not, what do you think about that?

Jon Carl Lewis  5:56  
Well, I want to be very careful. Because spirituality is an incredibly personal aspect of of someone's life. And there are people who may not believe that they have a spirituality and to honor their experience, and to sort of honor the fact that, you know, they are the experts on their own experience, I would stop short of saying everybody is spiritual. However, I would say people who aren't spiritual are probably few and far between, in the human race.

Coach Maddox  6:43  
I like that, particularly the part about just honoring people where

Jon Carl Lewis  6:46  
they are, yes, that's very important. That something the

Coach Maddox  6:51  
world is in desperate need of right now just people being honored for where they are, because we're, we're not in that place. Historically, we're not really in that place.

Jon Carl Lewis  7:02  
Right. And, you know, I think of my training, as I was trained as a spiritual director, I'm using the language of spiritual companionship. Now, I don't direct anyone, I don't tell them what to do. I, I am trained to witness people's journeys. I'm trained to ask people deep questions about what they do, or what they what they feel and how they connect to themselves and to the outside world. And one of the important things about that work is if you come in and start making all sorts of assumptions and start imposing all sorts of language, or all sorts of rituals and someone else's experience, they're not going to be open with you. And it may actually hinder them from connecting with what's true in their own heart. So yeah, it's very important that, that there's a lot of listening to the person who is in front of you and believing what they say.

Coach Maddox  8:14  
Hmm, absolutely. And I'm thinking about what you said about religion being a very social thing. You're right, most of it is centered around churches or Bible study classes or adult. I'm not paying I'm I don't know what I was gonna say there. I guess like Sunday school classes, adult Sunday school classes. And, and on the flip side, I know for me, spirituality has been a personal journey. It's not been a not that I don't engage periodically in conversations with people that are interested in talking about spirituality. But the whole process has been me reading books, me studying me spending time going within meditation, it is a more solitary thing that is very personal. And not as social. Not that it can't be but I think it just tends maybe not to be. I mean, I've lived spiritual study groups. So there was some social aspect to it. But a lot of my own life, it has been not a social thing. It's been something that's lived mostly inside of me, rather than outside of me.

Jon Carl Lewis  9:40  
Yeah, that's, that's interesting. What came up for me when you were talking about that is Hindu. Hindu practice are the Hindu understanding of the world. In the Hindu understanding of the world, there are Eight sort of ways of expressing your connection with the Divine yoga is one of those a bhakti devotion. being loving and bhakti being of service to other people is another one of those A. And I don't have all a at the tip of my brain, but I don't get the sense that to be a good Hindu, you have to do all eight. And you certainly don't have to do all eight. In the same proportions that someone else might do all eight. You might just do breath work and yoga. You might do loving devotion and intellectual pursuit, which is another of the eight. Why feel about spirituality and religion is that when we express our spirituality it really needs to come from how we as individuals are designed to express that spirituality. So if if group stuff, ritual, ritual doesn't work for you, doesn't work for you. works for a lot of people. But it doesn't work for everybody. There's no one size fits all.

Coach Maddox  11:41  
That's the beauty of it, isn't it? Yeah. It's everybody gets to just really, you know, I think there's something that happens with religion that always turns me off that it doesn't exist with spirituality. And that is there's this religion has this. Where were you on Sunday? We didn't see you at church. You know, it's almost like, you're not a good Christian. If you're not showing up every every Sunday. It's like there's this I don't know. sense of obligation. And you're you're not, you know. That was one of the things that always really bugged me, there's so much dogma with religion that doesn't seem to exist with spirituality. Spirituality never gives me this long list of thou shalt nots. And my experience growing up with religion, you know, I will never forget, as long as I live being a small child sitting in the pew, between my mom and dad and hearing the minister, tell everybody in the congregation that they were sinners. And as a small child, I distinctly remember I didn't say it out loud, because we were in church and I was old enough to know better. But what was the reaction was that I was having on the inside that internal reaction was that that reaction that you hear from a small child, I crossed both my arms, you know, when I went you know, it just, I just something about that didn't resonate with me at all, I didn't buy into that belief. And, and knew that it wasn't true for me, even as a small child, and I never have been able to, to know, you know, wire, why that was such a strong thing inside of me, that small, young age.

Jon Carl Lewis  13:40  
Well, you know, as I've come to know, you're you are a very indomitable spirit as an individual. And you walk your own path. That's one of the gifts you give to the world. And, and I honor that, I think that's wonderful.

Coach Maddox  14:00  
Thank you, John, Carl, that that means a lot. I you know, it's amazing what happens inside of us when somebody reflects back an aspect of us that we don't necessarily see and you just did that for me. I mean, I've always been kind of a march to the beat of my own drummer person, but you worded it in a really powerful way. Thank you for that.

Jon Carl Lewis  14:23  
Yeah, you're welcome. And with your welcome comes a thank you, because you're being who you are in the world frees me to be who I am in the world, and the people who you touch, to be who they are in the world. And I think that's a wonderful thing.

Coach Maddox  14:39  
You know, there was a point during the pandemic when I had this awareness that when I would, wherever I was, if it was a group setting and there was an opportunity to do something if I went first. I gave everybody else in the permission permission to go next. You know, anytime Yeah, I'm Watch this all my life, you know who wants to go first and nobody wants to go first. And I was never really well in the latter years of my life not afraid to go first. And so at first I thought, Oh, heck, I don't mind going first I'll go first. But then I realized that when I went first, it, it literally gave everybody in the room permission to go. Next. It started to be where people would say, I'm so glad you you burst or said what you said, because then it felt like it was okay for me to it just there was just this moment when I realized that I could give the other people in the circle a gift merely by going first.

Jon Carl Lewis  15:45  
Yeah, yeah. And I think that, you know, to generalize, I think that not only is their spirituality, but there are spiritual gifts. Because they come out of a religious tradition. That idea identifies doing good for the other, as something that you do. I have tended to be biased towards the thought that what I have inside me spiritually is a gift I've been given that doesn't mean a damn thing if I don't share it with other people.

Coach Maddox  16:38  
This is very true. I believe that, yes, wholeheartedly. I identified some years ago, I've worked in the service industry all of my life. But there was a point where I identified that I had the heart of a servant, that I truly serve others. Everything I've ever done has been some some point of service. And you're right, it there's, there's a deeply spiritual quality to that. It beats my soul in ways that I can't even fully express.

Jon Carl Lewis  17:22  
Yeah. Are you familiar with what the term ecstasy means in

Coach Maddox  17:32  
the Greek? I am not.

Jon Carl Lewis  17:36  
Ecstasy comes from two words, in ancient Greek, x, which is outside of and you know, all the root, the root of the word stasis or standing, and ecstasy in Greek is literally standing outside of yourself. Being able to perceive the world in a radically different way, by going out of your own particularity. And I think when you do that you connect with others, and you see your role in the wider matrix of life.

Coach Maddox  18:14  
I think so too. I have never heard that term use that way or explained that way. I love it. I mean, now I won't be able to hear the word ecstasy without thinking, you know, standing outside of myself. That's beautiful.

Jon Carl Lewis  18:30  
And, you know, we have other words, you know, in English out of body experience. Yes. I was beside myself. Oh, yes. All that transcendent stuff that gets you out of yourself. And and there's a paradox because once once you get out of yourself and you see things from a different perspective, you'd be begin to see your own particularity in a new and beautiful light.

Coach Maddox  19:02  
Absolutely, you know, I'm, I'm being like, just having flashbacks. Now, of times when I have been in conversation, whether it's a coaching client or somebody in my life, it doesn't matter where they're, they're so stuck in their own shit. That they're just they're bogged down and they can't, they can't get unstuck. They can't get out. And I have realized oftentimes, what I'll suggest is Go Go get in service to somebody else. You got to get out of your, your, your own self, you got to step out of you and be with others. You're so focused on what you need and what you want and what you don't have. That you can't see the trees for the forest. You're too close. Get out of yourself, and go be of service to another human being. And just see what happens.

Jon Carl Lewis  20:00  
Yeah, yeah. I am I currently involved with a United Methodist congregation. And we have a new pastor who is very progressive. And we often talk about what the use, what is the use of church, and Springboarding, on what you said, one of the, one of the ways that younger generations connect with faith communities is around the idea of service, especially social justice. If you have a spiritual community that is advocating for social justice, all of a sudden, young people are interested. Because that's where the real energy is. And when we come together, to advocate for social justice, we move the world in a way that's much more powerful than we can by ourselves.

Coach Maddox  21:28  
You know, I never thought of it like that. And that's really powerful, John Carl, because, you know, I hear all the time or read things about how many churches are struggling, you know, they're filled with old people, but the young people aren't there very much. And what I'm hearing you say is the number one way to bring the young people in, would be to just stand up with a platform of social justice, and that alone would draw the young people in.

Jon Carl Lewis  21:58  
Yeah. And I'll make a you know, rhetorical statement. Churches that don't care for their communities and aren't working to make the world a better place, don't deserve to live.

Coach Maddox  22:14  
I fully agree.

Jon Carl Lewis  22:19  
Not the churches that do nothing but sit there and be self satisfied will always exist. But there are a lot of congregations where they love the building the organ, you know, the memory of the dead people who used to sit there with them not not that these are bad things. But if they don't get outside themselves, and figure out the world what the world needs and start doing it. Then I think that is toxic religion.

Coach Maddox  22:56  
Oh, and what a great segue because I know you spoke earlier briefly when we spoke before we recorded about, you know, toxic religion and healthy spirituality. But as I just think about that, as you spoke about it I also kind of want to I want to talk about that but I also want to know about the flip side of that where we could have healthy healthy well, okay, actually, as we talked about it now I'm recalling it was toxic spirituality versus healthy spirituality. But I'm sure there's some of that that plays into religion as well.

Jon Carl Lewis  23:46  
Well, I think at the heart of toxic religion is toxic spirituality. I'll name some examples. I this morning, I found out that a a person I very much admire who has done a lot for me and for a lot of people in helping them to connect with their spirituality has found a large tumor inside of him and doesn't know yet what the prognosis will be.

Toxic spirituality might say things to him like if you pray hard enough, God will heal you. Toxic spirituality would say to him, and you get this. I remember during the AIDS crisis I have a friend Who actually believed that if he aligned his thoughts and his thoughts were pure, he would not die from AIDS. He was a wonderfully pure man. He died from AIDS.

Coach Maddox  25:17  
Well, in that toxic spirituality, slash religion was had had many people tell us that AIDS was our punishment for being homosexual.

Jon Carl Lewis  25:35  
Absolutely. And, and that was, I remember how I remember that painfully. But I also remember, and I don't want to there's nuance here. Um, but there were a fair number of people who went from that to Louise Hay. Who was basically telling them that if, if you think if you think good thoughts, and you intend strongly enough, you can beat this disease and you will live. I believe it was she who coined the phrase people wanting attention. Um, and when people died, you know, that did things to their spirituality. And so that's what I consider toxic spirituality. Another example is everything happens for a reason. Everything may happen for a reason, or it may not. But you tell someone whose two year old child has died that Spirit, God has good, some good reason for it. And I consider that toxic spirituality.

Coach Maddox  27:09  
I don't know that I would word it that way I do kind of I'm for much of my life, I have believed that there is a an orchestration to life as we know it, that whatever higher power, whether it's a god, that there that's it's very carefully orchestrated, and that most things have a purpose and happen for a reason, oftentimes, things that we can't see or understand why, especially in the moment, I can look back on many times in my life when something that really seemed bad at the time happened. And then there was a later date when I could see purpose, not 100% of the time, but when I could see that it unfolded, the way it needed to unfold. One of the things I say to my clients is, you know, the universe doesn't always give us what we want, sometimes gives us what we need. And we maybe can't see that at the time. Things don't always work out the way we want them to. But they always work out.

Jon Carl Lewis  28:21  
I'll hear that I think, I think I think there is something in that. It there's so much paradox in spirituality.

Coach Maddox  28:35  
I agree completely. You spoke with Louise Hay earlier, I have always been a Louise Hay fan. You know, I think to coin one of her big phrases, heal your real your mind, heal your life. And I do think that there is a correlation. You know, when we have dis ease in our mind, we create disease in our body. I do believe that. I don't think that we always have the power to alleviate what it is that's caused the disease. And then sometimes we do you know, she cured herself of terminal cancer a gazillion years ago and lived out a long life. I think she passed here just a few years ago, but she was quite old. And that was all documented. But I certainly I look around me and can see people in my life who I could literally see that their mindset was aligned with whatever disease they were experiencing. Just see it. You know, most of everything she taught was metaphorical. You know, like, for instance, cancer. It's like it's something that's inside of us that eats us from the hands sight out? Well, that's kind of what resentment and hatred does. It eats us from the inside out. I've always seen a correlation there. I'm curious to hear what you think of that.

Jon Carl Lewis  30:16  
Yeah, and I think, I think yeah, again, I'm coming back to paradox and paradox makes you often sound like you're talking about both sides of your mouth. But I think within certain limitations. You know, the mind body connection is absolutely real. Our minds are really not separate from our bodies in any sort of measurable scientific or medical way. Every emotion you have is tied to a neurochemical reaction which happens in the body. So yeah, there's there's definitely something that goes on there.

Coach Maddox  31:14  
We just haven't defined it or control it in a way that we really can. Some people have been fortunate enough to kind of stumble across it perhaps I don't know.

Jon Carl Lewis  31:28  
Well, here's here's my bias.

My bias is that to go deeply into your spirituality means to a certain extent, um, relinquishing control of your life and accepting what is.

Coach Maddox  31:57  
Yes, you know, and you said something earlier about toxic being, you know, somebody's trying to pray away, whatever it is, pray away the gay as we say, or pray away disease. I don't believe that in a minute. To me that is not taking responsibility for your own life, for your own situation. You know, when we when we think we were just gonna sit back and do nothing, but we'll pray that, that God will fix it. I don't believe it works that way. That that is to me that is not taking responsibility. And I think that if we're ever going to have what we want in life, there have been times in my life when I have prayed and prayed and prayed for something that never came. But when I finally got off my friggin ass and took some responsibility in my life what I had been praying for forever that never came, suddenly showed up. Yeah, yeah, but I had to I had to take some responsibility. I couldn't just I don't think we have control but I do think we have influence

Jon Carl Lewis  33:16  
Yeah, I agree with you. I agree with you on that. I feel that toxic religion can often be boiled down to a need for control.

Coach Maddox  33:32  
Oh, yes, I fully agree.

Jon Carl Lewis  33:38  
And you know, one of the ways that people are dismantling their religious beliefs these days is a by refusing to be controlled and be sorted by relinquishing control and recognizing what is

Coach Maddox  34:07  
exactly you know, we're told so many things you know, you're going to go to hell because you're gay. Or the only way that you can be you know, saved in the eyes of God is to put half of your income in the collection plate either your there's just all control and it's manipulation and and I'm not saying every religion or every church does that. But there is a healthy dose of that out there.

Jon Carl Lewis  34:37  
Yeah. Well, and it's necessary to talk about power also. Um

religion and spirituality in some ways are alike and that there is a lot of power In both and it's easy to be tempted by power. Um Have you ever known someone Harris Maga who seems to be very spiritual? Yes. So so charismatic that people are just sort of drawn to them and want to be with them around them?

Coach Maddox  35:39  
Yes, absolutely.

Jon Carl Lewis  35:43  
And when that happens, a charismatic person has to be very grounded in themselves and in reality, to make sure that everyone started taking it for granted and be they don't start abusing people.

Coach Maddox  36:05  
Yes, you're exactly right. Now, I can't say that I've ever seen that. To the degree that I've seen it with religion. I mean, I know that exists. In my own personal journey, I have experienced very little of anything spiritual exerting control trying to exert control over me or manipulate me, in my own experience. Can't say the same about religion. You know, there was definitely a control factor and, and a manipulation, in my experiences with with religion. But you're right, it looks a little bit differently, but charismatic, can play a big role in that for both religion and spirituality. People are drawn in, you know, it's the pied piper syndrome.

Jon Carl Lewis  37:03  
Yeah. I think what I'm hearing in myself is a deep belief that any human capacity could be used for good or ill. And then no human activity is exempt from that.

Coach Maddox  37:30  
That's reasonable. I'm on board with you. Those things in of them themselves are are not good or bad. It's the motivation behind it that deems it so. Yeah. Yeah. And Carl, I would love to talk a little bit about shame. I know that I had, I have had so many guests on the podcast that have talked about the religious shame that they grew up with and I experienced some of that in an early age not to a super high degree, but I've had a taste of it enough to know what it tastes like.

Unknown Speaker  38:15  
What

Coach Maddox  38:17  
talk to me a little bit about what you believe about that and maybe how it is that we How is that different between religion and spirituality? Or if it is different? And how do we navigate that how do we free ourselves from that religious shame that we was put on it many of us at such a young age that we just accepted that shame. Yeah, and we carry that shame today many of us

Jon Carl Lewis  38:53  
absolutely. And you know also not only do we carry that shame individually, we we carry it as a culture

I would say that in this moment, I'm thinking of shame as a wound inflicted by toxic religion

Coach Maddox  39:23  
I'm I'm there with you. Yes. Absolutely.

Jon Carl Lewis  39:28  
Um I I've spent a lot of time over the pandemic, listening to the stories of people who are deconstructing from Christianity. And what that looks like is starting to question not only the beliefs but but The ways people were taught those beliefs. And one of the things I'm noticing is that well, some beliefs, I believe, are harmful. But when you dig back into someone's history, it's often the way those beliefs were forced upon someone that caused the harm. I mean, coming to a belief that there is a benevolent universe, working for the good of all concerned, there is a belief if someone tries to force you to believe that it's going to cause harm, and you'll probably end up with some shame.

Coach Maddox  41:09  
No, I never thought of that. That's a held belief that I've held for many years now. I never tried to impose it on anyone else. But I, I do believe that we live in a benevolent universe, I kind of feel I've seen so many miracles in my own life, not burning bush miracles, but you know, things that there is just for me, there's no denying that there's something at work that is doing what it can to support me and having a good life. No one would ever convince me otherwise. Have I had my trials and tribulations? Yes, absolutely. There's just been crazy things that have unfolded in my life, that there's no explanation for. You know, and, and then I've gotten feedback throughout my life. You know, I had a woman that I worked with for years, many years ago, that she used to just say, to me, You are the only person I've ever known in my life that can fall in shit and come out smelling like a rose. You know, she would just say, things just always work out for you. And there's some truth to that. And I think that it's largely because I believe things are going to work out for me. This is kind of a self fulfilling prophecy.

Jon Carl Lewis  42:45  
Makes a lot of sense. Yeah.

Coach Maddox  42:52  
I mean, when when I mean, I, I get that there are people that are atheist and agnostic. But I can't I can't wrap my mind around that. I'm certainly I had people in my life that are both. And I honor them, I meet them where they are. I never tried to impose my stuff on them. But they would never be able to convince me that there's not some powerful force that's working in orchestrating all of this, because it largely works like a well oiled machine. Hmm. And I'm reminded every day when I think about this body that I live in, it's just this miraculous piece of machinery that just does its own thing. And, you know, that just happened? I don't think so. I don't think that just happened. Yeah, that's, that's me. And I would never impose that on anyone.

Jon Carl Lewis  43:59  
Well, it's funny because I was cringing at a newsletter I received which was talking about.

I follow a lot of different religious traditions, some of which I believe are toxic and doing harm because I want to know what they're up to. And I also want to understand where they're coming from, so I can better understand a how to avoid them and be how to help the people who come out of those systems. But this newsletter bothered me because it was basically trying to convince people to win folks over to their belief by being nice to them. And when I hear what you're talking about, I'm realizing there's a difference between sharing your experience of your connection with the Divine am trying to wrestle someone into a belief, I think they're vastly different.

Coach Maddox  45:24  
They're vastly different. I agree. And there's some part of that be nice to people to bring them into your religion that feels very cult like to me. Leave people to hell alone, let them find their own way. You know, if you want to invite them to come see what you have to offer, that's lovely. But beyond that, trying to convince somebody that your space is where they need to be. No, no, no. And that's not just with religion, that's with any kind of community. You know, I'm embarking on Compute Community Leadership right now. And we fully intend to invite people to be part of our community. But we realize it won't be for everybody. And we would never try to co cajole, or or convince somebody to do that. Why would we do that? No, no, no, no, no.

Jon Carl Lewis  46:17  
Huh? Well, and I'm thinking of what a gesture of offering looks like, as opposed to a gesture of imposing. And what I'm thinking of right now is

one of the things you learn when you go to seminary is that Christianity is a very poor representation of the teachings of Jesus.

Coach Maddox  47:02  
I believe that as well.

Jon Carl Lewis  47:05  
So if you actually spend time looking at the words and deeds of Jesus, in context, you realize that Jesus didn't go around forcing things on people. Jesus offered. He asked questions he invited. Before he healed several people, he would ask the question, what do you want me to do for you? So here's this figure who through some sort of shamanic connection with the divine, can make blind people see, make Lane people walk drive out demons from people who are crazy. But was always very gentle around not crashing the will of some other person. And what I take from that is that people who follow the Jesus way are encouraged by the life and stories of Jesus to invite people into our experience, but lightly this works for me. It may not work for you. Take what works and leave what doesn't.

Coach Maddox  48:47  
That's been my philosophy for most of my life, you know, as you're, as you're describing this scenario about the way he worked with people. What came up for me in that moment, just this intuitive hit that he was a man who had come to peace with his ego that trying to manipulate and control people to come to your side of the room to your religion. There's always ego involved in that

yeah, that's you know, it's interesting, I'm having this aha moment right now, based on everything you're saying that because in any kind of religion or spirituality, there is there is some form of leadership there's some form of community in some shape or form of leadership. And I'm, I'm looking at my own movement towards community leadership, and just having this aha moment about how I need to keep my ego in check. I really need to offer and and then let it go.

Jon Carl Lewis  50:20  
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I heard a good sermon yesterday by someone who's becoming a friend.

I question the title of the sermon when I saw it in the bulletin. The sermon was titled Do you have bad breath? And one of the things he talked about was that sometimes our breath smells bad. And it's necessary that we live in community with people we trust. So that somebody can tell us honestly, when our breath smells bad. And he said, and then you go brush your teeth. So I firmly believe that leadership, healthy leadership needs to be grounded in honest community. You got to have people in your life who can tell you your breath is bad.

Coach Maddox  51:45  
Absolutely. And you got to be willing to hear it. You have to people in the community and not I've been in communities where we were all telling the leader that he had bad breath. And he did not go and brush his teeth. He just kept on doing it. He acted like he was interested in what you had to say. But he wasn't really because nothing changed. He still had bad breath. Yeah, so there's, there's a key there. You know, you're right. Yeah, you gotta have people that are willing to tell you, what's their experience, but you also have to be willing to listen.

Jon Carl Lewis  52:25  
Yeah. And on the flip side to is the naming of good also, people can only hear bad things, if they've heard seven good things about themselves from you. And that's important to

Coach Maddox  52:54  
unpack that a little bit for me, please.

Jon Carl Lewis  52:59  
I'm thinking I'm thinking, you know, back to where I've heard about, you know, from relationship counselors that if you've got criticism for your spouse, if you haven't affirmed the context of love and trust, then they're not going to hear a word you say, they're just going to hear another criticism.

Coach Maddox  53:31  
That's true. I think that's true.

Jon Carl Lewis  53:34  
So what I think is that, you know, going back to spiritual leadership and community a community needs to be able to call out what people are doing right more often than what they're doing wrong. Yes. So that if they're doing something crazy, they know that it's coming from a perspective of love and care and connection.

Coach Maddox  54:10  
Yes. And it's also very dependent on the delivery. We've all been, you know, criticized by somebody when it was delivered in a really, really critical manner. And then we've all had people come and give us loving feedback that didn't feel like criticism at all. Yeah, sharing their, their perception. Here's what I saw, was wondering if that's what you intended. There's so many different ways to deliver. This is a topic I absolutely love, I call it compassionate confrontation. And it's delivering things in a manner where people can actually hear it. Yeah. I'd like to know a little bit about Your practice and the clients you work with who they are and a little bit about how you help them bridge that gap between spirituality and religion

Jon Carl Lewis  55:20  
I actually find it ironic that

the people I work with tend to be a religious professionals or people who are trying to figure out if they want to be religious professionals, young clergy seminarians for some reason Spirit blows them my way and often what we talk about is

how to win make a distinction between who they are at their most authentic and what the institution is trying to make them into and also be mindful of the fact that for many of them this desire to please daddy in the form of God has a lot to do with why they want to be in religious service and so and so it's you know, this my constant work I'm constantly doing is trying to help people listen to their hearts i i say ask a lot of questions. I don't really talk very little I find it ironic because I do a fair number of interviews and speaking and things like that. And I come away from it saying wow, that was just a really bad advertisement for what I do in spiritual direction. Um because a lot of it is just sitting there long enough and quietly enough for someone to hear what's going on in their own heart

Coach Maddox  57:53  
that's beautiful. Use you spoke about the way these these people that are seeking out clergy or you know that that path are, are they make straight and gay are mostly gay? What? What's what's mostly drawn to work with you?

Jon Carl Lewis  58:16  
Um Well, I find it ironic that even though you know, I've tried to put myself out there as wanting to work, particularly with queer people, especially around issues of sexuality. The Spirit hasn't sent me people who are particularly interested in talking about their sexuality. It's mostly deep identity issues. So I've got some street people, street couple Street guys, a handful of gay man. And their big question seems to be why am I doing this? Why am I working this hard? And for what? And I like to turn that question back towards you know, well, what are you feeling connected to? Are you feeling connected to this? Um, I was feeling rather bad because I had someone I was walking with who decided that he didn't want to be part of a toxic institution that wasn't growing as fast in the direction he wanted to grow himself. So he walked away from priesthood. Wow. And because of who he was, I was happy with helping them walk away. because it's more important that my clients be authentically who they are then fit into some sort of pig, some sort of hole.

Coach Maddox  1:00:09  
I agree there is no peace and living outside of your authenticity, the farther I lean into my authenticity, the more comfortable I feel in my own skin, and the more at peace, I feel. And when we've got institutions that are drawing us in the opposite direction, it doesn't matter whether it's religion, or the music, or sports, there's a whole lot of institutions out there that are that are trying to get people to show up differently than who they really are. And then we wonder why drug addiction is so rampant in, in those industries. Because it's hard to cope, it's hard to live day in day out being somebody that you aren't, I think your work is very valuable.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:01:05  
Well, and it's, it's, it's, there's an irony to it also, because I'm aware that I'm a spiritual director, who comes out of a particular branch of the Christian tradition that so few people are familiar with, they have no idea exists, you know, that, that that branch that is contemplative, that gets open, that is listening, that is connected with authenticity, and the self, this is a valid strain within the Christian tradition that has been going on for hundreds of years. 2000 Let me tell you how that works. Jesus comes and preaches and excites a whole bunch of people to do good, they, they they set up a social safety net, they feed the poor, they they tend to the dying in the sick. And and then somebody gets the idea that wow, these people are a movement. If I can co opt that movement and build a structure around it then I can get all that power. And that's how the church was born. But the moment that happens, there are people who are following their religious convictions. And this happens in every religion who say I'm not about that. And so the moment the Roman Empire took over Christianity there were these people called the Desert Fathers and mothers who left the cities and went out to the desert and said, we're going to do Jesus way without the institution and where I feel I am positioned is at the door of the institution helping people in who want to be in helping people out who need to be out

Coach Maddox  1:03:23  
with no attachment to either way I'm hearing right you're you have a healthy ego

Jon Carl Lewis  1:03:36  
over healthy ego at the moment. If I if I don't eat right, if I don't exercise if I don't stay in community. I'm terrible, nasty and controlling.

Coach Maddox  1:03:56  
You know, I think it's good that you know, the pieces that have to be in place to to keep that in check. Know thyself. Right.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:04:12  
Well, you know, you know, Mags I mean, it's sort of like after being on Earth a few more decades, and most people many of us realize that. You had to be our best selves, to take care of ourselves and to take care of others. We need to we need to take, we need to be careful about, you know, how we structure our lives.

Coach Maddox  1:04:44  
Absolutely. And what we expose ourselves to and who we expose ourselves to. I am very intentional with all of that the people that I will put myself in their presence. For the things that I watch news, things of that nature, I have to I'm very intentional about all that because it plays such a role. You know, I'm, I'm an empath. I'm an HSP. For those that don't know, that's highly sensitive person. Although those things play a very big role, and if I don't manage them very, very appropriately, yes, it can, it can have not so pretty consequences.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:05:30  
Yeah. Yeah. But you know, where I was going is, I would love for people to find me, I'd love to sit one on one with people and hear their stories. And I'm reachable, you'll drop the links in the show notes and all of that. But there are other ways. Yeah, yeah. But there are other ways of getting spiritual support. Not as many as I wish there were. But when I lived in Boston, and had dropped out of seminary, I noticed some of the most together attractive, mindful guys. were attending AAA meetings. I was thinking, this is a stellar group of guys, how do I get into this club? Well, I really want to get into that club when you when you think about it, but there's something about the spirituality that gets expressed in a group like a that is very healing, of shame, of toxic religion, and very centering and supportive. And what I would like to see maybe, is more communities of people who are able to speak the language. And they're able to listen to hear other people's stories in a way that holds them and holds some sort of accountable, but also in a very loving and supportive way.

Coach Maddox  1:07:16  
Absolutely, I am right there. Now, I'm at a point right now, where I'm leading a lot of groups and frequently and that has, that is the pinnacle of what we try to do is create that safe space and bring people together in a very loving energy and the world needs community right now. I really believe it could be largely the cure for a lot that ails our world. We've lost our sense of community.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:07:54  
Right? Because what toxic religion and what shame, do the first thing they do is convince us that we're so bad, we need to hide ourselves from community or hide that part of ourselves from community. And so the antidote to shame, which we touched on earlier is, I think, to find community, community where you can be who you are. And that community may start with calling up a spiritual director and sitting there, you know, people don't bear their souls on the well actually, they do to me, I don't know why this happens. People bear their souls to Me. But you know,

Coach Maddox  1:08:50  
yeah, you do know why that happens.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:08:55  
You, but You know, but find someone that you can begin to open yourself up to, you know, and share that

Coach Maddox  1:09:02  
shame or, yeah, and

Jon Carl Lewis  1:09:05  
share the shame, name the shame. Other people feel that shame too.

Coach Maddox  1:09:09  
I personally believe that our way out of shame is to openly talk about it. You know, when you bring something when you bring the darkness out into the light you know, I firmly believe that darkness cannot survive in the light of consciousness. And every time we talk about whatever it is, we feel shame for it dimension diminishes in power until soon we just don't feel shame. If you keep bringing it out into the light, sooner or later, it's going to just dissipate. Yeah, yeah. John Carl, this has been amazing. As much as I thought it would be.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:09:53  
Our conversations tend to be amazing next.

Coach Maddox  1:09:57  
They do this has been great. I've really enjoyed it. You We've touched on some things that have certainly touched my heart, opened my vision up to see things with a little bit broader perspective. And I got an aha moment or two along the way. So thank you very much.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:10:15  
You're welcome. You've done the same for me. I'm gonna have to think about some of the things I'm gonna have to watch this back again and see what I think about it in a couple of weeks.

Coach Maddox  1:10:27  
So just for the listeners, there will be whatever you need to reach out to John Karl in the show notes and he he does coaching work with people if that's something you desire, I hope you'll reach out to him. Thank you for all of your wisdom. Your stories today, John Carl, it's been truly a joy and an honor.

Jon Carl Lewis  1:10:51  
Thank you for the space Mavericks. It's always wonderful.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai