Coach Maddox  0:03  
Hello Cater Sparks and welcome to The Authentic Gay Man Podcast.

Cator Sparks  0:08  
Thank you so much Maddox for having me honored to be here.

Coach Maddox  0:12  
It's an honor to have you here and cater How did we meet that we meet through the gay coaches Alliance?

Cator Sparks  0:18  
I believe we did at one of those fun cocktail hours that we did during COVID. And even afterwards,

Coach Maddox  0:24  
yes, yes. We're still doing that during those by the way. All right, well, just so the audience knows what we're here today to talk about is online dating, the mental health aspects of it. And then we're going to spend some time talking about alternatives to online dating, which I'm really excited about, because I'm one of those people that is kind of got a bad attitude when it comes to online dating, and have such a good experience. So let's jump right in. And I guess I'll ask, I'd like to know a little bit about overall, in general, because you're you coach, a lot of men that do online dating, and this is your thing. What percentage would you say? Actually, really, it's a good thing for them, they get honest, good dates out of it, versus the percentage that just like I did, I just didn't, I didn't really have good experiences. I didn't have horrible experiences. I just didn't have good experiences.

Cator Sparks  1:29  
Yeah, I would say, and I'm gonna sound like a politician, all of their, all of the experiences have been good for them. Because even if it's not, even if you're not having a great experience, you're not connected to people, you're learning more about yourself and about how, how to deal with that rejection? You know, and and to answer the question, honestly, I think most of the guys that I work with do end up having dates. Now, whether these are marriage material, or not, you know, we haven't gotten there yet. But they end up there is a lot of negative that goes with it. And that's kind of why I started a dating course, to work with that negativity and understand it, and, you know, help guys process it, because all of us have had terrible times on these apps. But I met my partner on scruff, and we've been together for three years, but I met, you know, 100 other guys on scruff that were, you know, that ghosted, and we're, you know, bots, and this and that. So, I'm fully aware of how trying and exhausting these apps can be, but at the same time, they can be, you know, really helpful for guys, especially if you don't live in a, you know, you know, a bigger town with gay bars and gay activities, and, you know, gay events and things like that. So it's a great place for queer people to meet each other as well.

Coach Maddox  2:54  
Do you find that age plays any role in the level of success versus not success? Do you find that your younger clients have better luck with the online dating than the say, the older clients? Or is it all the same?

Cator Sparks  3:15  
I would say it's all the same. I mean, yes, you know, if you are a 65 year old guy, and you're looking for a 25 year old guy, whether that's just for, you know, friends with benefits or dating, it's gonna be harder. You know, there's not that many younger guys who are into older men necessarily, but at the same time. You know, there are, it's interesting one of my clients was on Grindr for a long time in head, he's in his 60s didn't have a lot of success with it. And he got on scruff and it's written really, pot he's been really popular because scruff kind of gears is geared towards older men, men with beards, things like that. So he's met a lot more people now whether those are concrete dates are friends with benefits, play time, but even just friends, people to talk to connect with, he's really enjoyed that. So that's been a really interesting observation.

Coach Maddox  4:06  
I bopped around I tried different ones I played on scrap a bit. I think the one I landed on and spent the most time on was OkCupid. But I probably best with it and not not like every single day, but I was on there quite a bit for about a year. And I got two men to get on a zoom with me. And I got one man that actually met me in person out of a year. That was the level of success I had. And then finally, I just thought, you know, this just isn't for me, and I decided I'm going to do the alternative aspect. Right? And it works. It works. Yes, because here in a few days, I'm celebrating the one year anniversary of my relationship and it with each day gets better and so that's a good thing. You can see that first year it can go either way.

Cator Sparks  5:02  
So it really can, it really can. Well, and like what I tell my clients to is, it's really are I suggest is it's, I find it really handy to be on a couple of them at the same time, like, scruff and Grindr are very, you know, sexual. But you know, I think hinge is a wonderful app for meeting a partner. And I do have straight male clients as well who are on hinge, they're on match.com. And, and they do have success, you know, but the bigger thing for me is, like the whole mindset around online dating, you know, so many people create their profile, while like, maybe they've had two glasses of wine, and they're laying in their couch, and they're about to go to sleep, and they create a profile. And that's just do you really do, you know, not to get too spiritual, but you know, you're looking for a life partner, are you gonna, like, really just like, whip up online dating, you know, platform profile, while you're kind of tipsy and about to pass out? Or do you really, really want to set an intention and like, set up time on a Saturday to? You know, think about what you really want a partner? What values do you want? What's your non negotiables? Do you want someone who's liberal? Do you want some was monogamous? Do you want someone who has family who's family oriented? Do you want children, you know, all these kinds of things that a lot of people just kind of throw up a profile and think like, Okay, where's my Mr. Right, you know, or Mrs. Right, and they don't show up. And oftentimes, because the profile just isn't that well thought out. And, and I, listen, that's coming from someone who knows that 47 I've dated many, many men, I was married, divorced, and, and so much of who I dated, I didn't really realize what I wanted, you know. And I just kind of went with the guy who was interested, and not necessarily the guy who was right for me. And that was a lot of self esteem issues on my side, you know, of lack of self love, and just kind of wanting that. Oh, he's interested. Great. I'll take him.

Coach Maddox  7:03  
I think that's a rite of passage. Actually, I think most of us have been there. I certainly recall my time there. Agreed. One of the things that I realized when I was doing the online dating like you, I thought the profiles were not, you know, a lot of them would, I would eliminate them just by some of the really stuff that they said it was just like, Okay, this is not my person. But I also frequently thought, Wow, that's a horrible photo, why would you post a photo of a person it wasn't that they were ugly? It was that the photo was ugly, you know, it was just a photo it was in really dim light, or it was, you know, the top of their head? Or was, I don't know, not something that represented them in their best light, I thought,

Cator Sparks  7:53  
Well, exactly. And that's another way I mean, not just setting up your profile, but yeah, having what pictures are you going to post and so many people just kind of a so especially men, so many men don't take pictures don't have pictures that and that's why I think, as you know, girlfriends of mine say I'm so tired of seeing straight men holding a fish as their profile picture. But when else do straight men get their picture taken, it's like when they're hunting, when they want something in sports, or when they're caught a fish. And, you know, we really need to if we want to date, like get a friend to take some pictures of you. And some you know, if you're a hiker, go up to the mountains, but if you're not a hiker, don't picture take a picture of you hiking, you know, I see a lot of people doing that. And then they don't they're, you know, they they're not into the outdoors yet they have these pictures outdoors, just for for the profile pic. You know, also no pictures, you know, don't wear a hat. People want to see if you're bald or see if you have beautiful hair. Don't wear sunglasses, people want to see your eyes. And I had a client who that was a real aha moment for them because they actually have like sensitivity issues. So he's like, all my pictures are with sunglasses. I'm like, Well, you know, that looks kind of shady, you know, pardon the pun, like have a couple with your with your, and he's also a very handsome man. So, you know, people are gonna see him with his beautiful blue eyes.

Coach Maddox  9:11  
Do you suspect that at least some of that is a form of self sabotage. You know, they want to put it out there and say, Yes, I'm online dating. I've got a profile, because it makes them look like they're making effort. But then they're doing things that are working against them. Do you think that's an unconscious form of self sabotage?

Cator Sparks  9:32  
Yeah, I have not thought about that. But it probably is, you know, in some way, shape or form. I also from the people I've worked with, it's just like, they just haven't even thought about it. You know, he was so surprised when I said don't take a picture with sunglasses like, just so far beyond what he had thought about. And so a lot of this I think is just people not not digging deeper and really thinking what they need to do to be success. So cool in the sense why I started my, you know, my, my course, because a lot of guys just don't know the steps. I do. I'm sure you're right Maddox, I'm sure there are people out there is like, I'm just gonna throw this up and see what happens. And you know, when you throw it up and see what happens, oftentimes, that's you're not going to get anybody because you're not putting the energy in it, you're not putting good pictures, good. You know, good text and profile bios, etc.

Coach Maddox  10:27  
Yeah, quite a bit of effort into mine, I very carefully selected photos, and I worked on, you know, representing myself and in the stories that I shared in the comments and the things that I made, I worked and worked and worked on it. And I don't know, you know, I may have actually gone into with a little bit of a bad attitude. You know, I may have just thought, I don't think this is gonna work. You know, I tried to work through that, but I don't know that I actually did. Mm hmm. You know, in life is a self fulfilling prophecy. If you think it's gonna suck, it's probably gonna suck 100% Yes. So I can I can own that.

Cator Sparks  11:03  
Well done. Well done. Yeah, I tried to change my clients per sec perspective into, you know, whether you meet someone or not, this is an adventure. It's something fun to do something curious, like, let's try this out. Let's see what happens. And all of them have met somebody, you know, main essay, the partner, but they've definitely met people that they're connecting with. And that's really important, especially in our community, even just to have someone else, you know, just talking to texting with to seeing if this is something that's interesting for both of y'all. You know, I do think one of my clients has had a hard time with how many men are on these, especially like Grindr and scruff who in relationships who are in open relationships and so he meets someone that he sees someone that's really cute and oh, they're in a relationship and meets another person that really cute oh, they're in a relationship like, I don't I need to look I'm not sure if on scruff or grinder if there's a way to just have, you know, people who are single only. But I know that can be frustrating, you know, when you see these guys who are who are unattainable for more than just two friends with benefits?

Coach Maddox  12:07  
Yes. And then there's of course, the people who will lead you to believe they're looking for a relationship, you know, but not really. I've had multiple friends share situations like that with me where, you know, the the date, did everything they could to make them believe if they were really interested in it, then there was that point when they got what they wanted, and they booked

Cator Sparks  12:30  
a ha, yes, yes, I've heard that. And straight and gay situations. And I like to remind my clients about that because I know some guys are like, Oh, my God, gay men are terrible and gay men are awful. Like, I can tell you, I have girlfriends who have say the same exact thing of you know, I talked to a guy for two weeks on, you know, hinge and then I said, let's have a date and he ghosted me. So, you know, I think there's a lot of trauma out there. There's a lot of shame. There's a lot of there's a lot going on out there. And that's one big thing that I try to help my clients understand is like, it's not you. And if I if I knew what it was, I would be a millionaire. You know, what the reason they didn't, you know, respond the reason they ghosted, whatever, but, but it happens. And it's sad. And you know, actually funny enough, one guy I met online, he, he actually invited me to his place, and I went, and it was in a different town and I went to this apartment building, and then he ghosted me and never gave me the number and I just messaged him, I said, you put me in danger. You know, I was in a new town and a new apartment building. It was 6pm. And I was walking around a building by myself trying to find your number trying to, you know, asking people if they knew you. And he told me he actually fascinating. It was so interesting to hear. He responded the next day said, I am so sorry. I did not really consider that. He said, basically, I wanted to hurt you, because I've been hurt by so many men. And I said, Wow, would you like to have a life coach? Which we didn't get there. But he was a more effeminate guy. And he said, he's been made fun of by so many, you know, more, you know, masculine looking guys, I guess like myself, and he was like, I just wanted to put punish someone and I said, Well, think about that next time you do that and you're putting someone in danger. I said, I think there's a different way to go about this. And you need to do some healing work on yourself before you put other people in danger. So if you don't talk to me to talk to someone else, so it's just fascinating, like what people are going through on these dating apps.

Coach Maddox  14:49  
to wonder, you know, if it just I read something today that really caught my eye and it was talking about the value of meeting people organically in your everyday life. You know, you're out and about in your everyday life, it's not taking additional time you're just exposed to people. But the one thing that really caught my eye was when the whoever the author was at this said you know, people behind a screen or on a phone can be really harsh, they will say things that they would never say, in person. And the minute you get on some type of device, you are subject to that harshness, because there's that, you know, that safety barrier, you can't reach out and smack them. Exactly, will say hurtful, hurtful things. And that, that really struck me because I'd never quite considered it quite like that.

Cator Sparks  15:54  
Yes, oh, 100%. I've heard horror stories of people being you know, told this or that and racist comments, and all sorts of things. And so, you know, you definitely have to put on a shield when you go into these places sometimes, because you don't know what's going to come up. And, and that is part of it. And that is sad. And again, that's, again, we're talking to clients about just having your self esteem in check, knowing you're good enough, knowing that that person has not been for you. And moving on, you know, and we can process that. You know, those comments if you need to, but you know, otherwise just block and move on. Because there are good people out there.

Coach Maddox  16:36  
I think that the rejection piece is probably, I don't know, I'd love to hear your take, I think it's probably maybe the biggest piece. I read an article one time it's there's some study, I don't remember now the source of it had been done. And the Dennis was just man wasn't gay men, straight men, it was just men, that the number one thing that men fear the most is rejection. Hmm, I think there's some truth to that the article went on to say the number one thing that women fear. Now, of course, there's exceptions, but this is talking on, you know, across the board. They fear not being loved. And fear rejection. That's, you know, when I'm talking in any of my gay circles, and dating comes up. That's the that's the point. You know, I asked on one of one of the gay groups. Recently, my partner and I lead speed dating events, live speed dating events. And I asked in several big gay groups, if speed dating was available, where you live, or for gay men, would you do it? And some of the comments that I got, were just unbelievable. One guy said, oh, yeah, all right, so I'm gonna go get speed rejected 12 times. And it was, it was very eye opening to read some of the things. How would you? How do you work with your clients? If the rejection is the big thing there? How do you get them to the point where they can go into the dating thing and get ghosted? Or get whatever? And, and they don't immediately just go into this meltdown? Because they feel rejected?

Cator Sparks  18:22  
Right? Well, you know, one thing is, you know, doing the coaching on you know, self love and, and taking care of yourself and going into this knowing like, this, this, this could be battle, I could be going to this and it could be, I couldn't be hurt, but I am going in this with love and an open mind and open hearts. And you know, if, if there's issues, then I will take care of myself. But one, one book I talk a lot about is the Four Agreements. And it's the Four Agreements or be impeccable with your word. Don't take anything personally. Don't make any assumptions is my number one favorite of the Four Agreements, and always do your best, but don't make any assumption don't make any assumptions. You know, for me, that is so powerful, because I don't know what that person's feeling. I don't know why they did that. It's like the guy who goes to me and then said, like, you know, he just wanted to hurt me because he'd been hurt so many times. It's beyond my control, and I can't know and you know, some clients when they first get on and they get ghosted, and they, you know, our next session, like, Oh, my God, this happened a month and they're like, oh, yeah, some guy goes to be but anyways, I met this other guy who was really great and had a great conversation and maybe we're gonna go on a date and we're gonna go to a winery and whatever, you know, so you know, it really is part of the process it will happen. And you know, I'm not saying that ghosting is okay but different people see goes to you in different ways. I also see myself is and taking, valuing my, my space. And so if someone reaches out to me is like, Hey, how are you? And I'm not really attracted them, I might say, Great, thank you. Nice to meet you. And then, you know, maybe not respond with any questions, but then they keep asking, like, what are you doing? What's this? What's that? And I may not respond, because sometimes it's hard to just say, you know, well, I can say, I ended up usually saying, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm, I don't quite think we're, you know, we would be a good match, but thank you for reaching out. But sometimes you don't have the bandwidth to reach out and connect with all these people. And so, you know, if you, and there's funny little memes about like, at 11pm, on Grindr, how, when everyone's tipsy, and they all send, like, you know, hey, sexy to like, 55 different guys, just because they're tipsy and Arnie, you know, you don't have to respond to everybody. And it's, you know, you have to respect your time as well, and your bandwidth, but now I am 100% agreeing on ghosting, where, you know, you talk to someone for two weeks, and then you're like, let's meet up tonight. And then they block you. Or, you know, you're heading to their house and they block you. Or whatever. You know. Ghosting is terrible, it hurts, but we have to just kind of go with it and be like, Well, clearly that person I even tried to go as far as like, I feel sorry for that person, like, bless their heart. I hope they find peace because clearly they're unhappy if they're going to treat someone like this.

Coach Maddox  21:20  
When I was doing the online dating, I literally trained myself that when somebody blew me off ghosted me whatever, that I would just immediately assume that I had dodged a bullet. Yep, unit beautiful, taken care of my is beautiful, and good riddance, that they're gone. Because now they've created a space for somebody nice that will be more matched to me to come down to space that wouldn't have been available if they hadn't ghosted me. I just wrote that script and it made it you know, it just made a big difference, just to make it about them. That is totally about them.

Cator Sparks  22:03  
Because it is yes. 100%. so beautifully done. Maddix. Because that's, that is what I encourage my clients to do. This is beyond your control. That is up to them. And yeah, you've dodged a bullet, they weren't the right person for you wasn't meant to be.

Coach Maddox  22:16  
There's something very soothing about just saying Thank you universe, I'm quite sure you just took care of me and I've dodged a bullet. Yeah, just suits you right out and makes it okay. And you move on next.

Cator Sparks  22:30  
Right? Yes, absolutely. And, you know, sometimes we get I often, you know, talk to clients about taking, you know, treating online dating almost like a business like, you know, maybe open it from eight to 830 in the morning, and then open it again, from like six to 630 in the evening. But you know, don't Doom scroll on it. Don't keep looking and poking and you know, you know, go on with your life, do what you want to do live in the present, but it's a great resource and seeing who's on there, and what's happening and what's going on. And it's also a great resource when you're traveling, especially, you know, I think you can even do this match, but when you go to different cities, you know, I can open like when I was in, I think it was Amsterdam. Years ago, I opened my grinder and I met a really lovely guy who gave me a tour, you know, around and made a coffee and there's nothing sexual about it. But it was just meeting other queer people and saying, like, hey, what nightclubs are around here and what parties are, you know, what museum Should I hit? And, and that can be a really beautiful way to connect with other queer people.

Coach Maddox  23:33  
You know, it's amazing what draws people in this is a little bit off, because it's not a gay thing. But when I was at this conference this week, at the very last night, there were a group of us that were having drinks and there was a redheaded female. And she's, I think, she said she was on Bumble. And she said, she just checked her Bumble, we've come out of the conference, and in three days, she had messages from 360. Man, the Lord, Austin, Texas, and she said, Yeah, anytime I go to someplace where I don't live, this is kind of something similar to this happens. And it's, she's like, honestly, it's all because I'm redheaded. Like, there's just this about redheads. I got tickled. But I thought, Oh my God, how would you ever sift through 360 messages in a three day period of time? What a lovely probably.

Cator Sparks  24:30  
But totally, totally. That is hysterical. But yes, it happens. And it's great. I've met people who met you know, they were in Mexico City, and they met someone great. And, you know, whether it's long term or just fun for a week, like awesome, you know, that's the beautiful part about these. And another thing I like about dating apps for gay men, because which is very different from straight people is top and bottom. You know, we, I mean, I was dating for 20 years before I was on an app so you know, you meet a guy that bar and then you know, you go on a date and maybe end up going home, you know, whenever. And then you realize you're not compatible sexually and you're like, Oh my God, why didn't I ask? What an awkward question to ask like, Are you a top or a bottom? Especially, you know, people get shy about stuff like that. And then on the apps, it's there. Like, it's so there is a place to put that and gay dating apps. And I think that's such a help. Besides just sex, but also, you know, everything else you want? Are you monogamous? Are you Christian? Are you spiritual? Are you, like I said before, that you can really get a feel for someone. Because like, I lived in New York City for years, and I met so many guys, I thought, Oh, this guy's amazing. And then it took me four or five days to realize like, oh, gosh, he's kind of a mess. And I might have seen that more. If I had seen if Instagram was around, or if you know, his, he had a dating profile. And I could see, you know, what he was all about? So there's, I think that's a big help. But especially like the sexual compatibility.

Coach Maddox  26:01  
No, it's funny. It's kind of a double edged sword to me, I always think I can see why you want to know upfront, you know, who's top who's bottom for that compatibility piece, but at the same time, when it's the thing somebody leads off with, I just kind of think, wow, that kind of kills any mystery? Do we have to, we have to do that up front? That people just don't want to waste their time? If you're not compatible? They're next, you know, and, and on. So what, cater what are what are some of the most prominent struggles that your clients have to overcome in order to be successful on online dating?

Cator Sparks  26:48  
Well, I It's the ghosting, it's all of them. And that really is just a terrible part of of online dating. It's the rejection, you know, just like you said, and having to understand that that rejection is not about them, you're dodging a bullet, like you said, and that this that is just part of the process. Like, there is no one who has ever been on a dating app who has not been ghosted, it just happens. And, and that is a process to learn and to connect deeper with yourself. And like I say, you know, some if you are really hurt, like shut it down, and go take a walk, or go call a friend or you know, have a glass of wine, something that's gonna make you feel better, and just not, you know, dwell in that that depression, which Hey, I mean, like I said, dating for 20 years, before apps. I had that in real life, you know, I mean, I, I would have a plan to meet someone and they wouldn't turn up at the restaurant, or they, you know, wouldn't respond to emails or calls after a third date. So, you know, it happened before all this as well, we less we forget. But it happens a lot more this way, because you're just sitting online and yeah, the ghosting can happen much more.

Coach Maddox  28:00  
It's easier. Yes. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna reformulate my question. I didn't ask a good question. I realized after you answer that, and ask a good question, what are some of the internal struggles that you find you're helping your clients with their part where, you know, we're kind of talking about, oh, that's the other person's issue. What are some of the things to, for them to be more successful at the speed dating, not to be getting? That's my thing, that that you find you are frequently helping your, your clients to work through or overcome, so they can be more successful?

Cator Sparks  28:39  
Sure, yeah, absolutely. It's that it's that self confidence, self love. Hashtag, I'm enough, you know, just knowing that I'm okay that I'm a good person, I deserve this. I deserve to have a loving, caring relationship. And knowing that I'm going to be okay. And also knowing that like, even if it doesn't happen, I am still okay. You know, I am, I am happy with myself, I'm happy with my life, I don't need a partner, it would be great to have a partner, it would be great to have that connection. But looking at other parts of your life you're thankful for, I'm happy for my career, for my friends circle for my family, where I live, all those kinds of things. Because it's hard to meet people, you know, and there are people who, you know, may not meet the one and maybe one day, but also that's okay. I also have a lot of friends who are like, I don't need to meet the one. I'm fine. I love my life. I like living independently. I like meeting people here and there for you know, you know, friends with benefits and things like that. But I think the whole idea of relationships are changing right now. I mean, it's amazing how many straight male clients I have who are looking into polyamory with their wives and open relationships because you know, gay men lead the way on that one and You know, we're just kind of re configuring like what we want and what relationships are in the modern world. But to go back to your question, yeah, it's absolutely self confidence and self worth issues, which, you know, also goes back to childhood trauma. I mean, one of my clients who, you know, he he grew up in a divorced parents with the parents fighting, and he always had to please somebody. So he's constantly a person, a people pleaser, and instead of taking care of himself, and so that's something we're working on. And so all of this, so much of it goes back to our childhood trauma, whether it's gay, shame, abuse, parent, divorce, you know, whatever it is, being a being obese or being being made fun of in school, countless, countless issues that all end up right there in our dating profile, because we are, you know, we haven't dealt with those issues. And so when we do get ghosted, we are reminded when our parents were divorced, or when our grandfather didn't pick us up at school or whatever, you know, so there's always something deeper to dig into when we talk about this. And that's what I like to get into with clients like, Okay, you got ghosted, so what, what's hurting, where are you hurting? Okay, yeah, let's dig into that, you know, and with every man, we do a lot of somatic healing, talking about where you feel in the body, let's process that in the in the body. I do. I've worked with Gabor Mateus course as well and compassionate inquiry. And that is very somatic as well. But also, it always leads to childhood 99.9% leads to childhood have you know, where are you feeling this? Why? What happened? Okay, when's the first time you felt rejected? Oh, when you were in first grade? Got it? You know, let's process that.

Coach Maddox  31:49  
No, I think that plays out in every aspect of our lives, whether they were gay or straight. And yes, I think that, you know, what you're pointing to here is you can you come by a relationship without doing your work? Yes. Will it be a good relationship? Will it be the right relationship? I know, for me, I put I really started hitting the work hard. A long time ago, my first really conscious choice to go into personal growth work was 1985. And I've done the work now for, you know, what is that soon to be? 40 years doing the math, right. And I know that as I continue to do my work, and the quality of my friendships, and my relationships got better and better. And yet, I find in so many circles, social circles that I move in. So few men doing the work are so few men willing to do the work. How do we get them to see the value of the work? How do we get them to see that it's the way?

Cator Sparks  33:20  
Yeah, you know, it's, it's beautiful. You said that I actually might have been Gabor Mati. I think you said this is like the most beautiful way for men to connect. And to dive deeper is to be in a group. Because if I go up to a man, and I say not, not that I would say do this, but like, hey, you know, what, if I'm with a man, and I feel that they're in pain, or you know, they're not sharing, and I try to help them open up and maybe crack open, and they're not ready for coaching, I'm not trying to coach them at a bar. They might be resistant. But if I'm like, Hey, I'm having 10 People 10 Min over the, for an everyman dropping group at my house, like, come over. And they all come over. And one guy says, I'm really sad because my boyfriend just ditched me. Another one's like, I'm really sad, because I'm not doing good at work. And the other ones like I'm really sad, because, you know, I got beat up growing up, and I haven't talked about it and they all start talking together and start sharing these, these stories and realizing that they're not alone. And that is a beautiful way for men to connect and grow and heal. That's why every man does what we do. We have our online we have our retreats, we have our online groups. Like I said, we're hosting our first GB TQ regroup group, this weekend in Texas, but it really helps because men, you know, we always laugh at every man have like two women can sit down with a glass of wine, look each other in the eye and just go, you know, go deep go into all of it to men, and actually read this too in platonic, Marisa Franco's book about, about friendship. Men always need a third thing they need to watch drag race together or if they're they're hunting or they're playing basketball, or they're fixing a car, and maybe something will come up about, you know, deep thoughts and personal issues. But men rarely look at each other and say, Brother, I'm hurt, I'm sad, I need help.

Coach Maddox  35:17  
That is so true. And that just hurts my heart. It just hurts my heart. I'm one of the exceptions, you know, I can sit with any of my friends, male or female, and tell them you know, I'm hurting right now. And I feel so blessed to have that, but knowing so many men can't do that. Right. And it's, you know, I think part of what's wrong with our world right now this is this is the kind of stuff that causes people to walk into big large crowds with a automatic gun and start firing, is they just repressed so much pain, that it eventually comes out? Sideways. So this is a kind of a perfect segue into the let's talk more seriously about the actual mental health aspects of the online dating and where it can perhaps set us up for, for that, or what we need to be aware of, and thoughtful of when we go into online dating, so we can preserve our mental health? And I'll just let you take over with that.

Cator Sparks  36:29  
Yeah, sure. Well, I, you know, we need to take care of ourselves. And that whether that is like, you know, healthy sleep, diet, exercise, not a lot of drinking, you know, meditation, yoga, all those kinds of things like we RuPaul said this one time, and I almost like fell over on my chair, when he used to have a podcast that I absolutely loved, I know, clearly ripples, head coaching courses, because he talks about inner allies and saboteurs and all this, and always goes back to childhood trauma, when he's on the show, asking kids, you know, asking drag queens what they would say, to their younger selves, but he said, You have to live the life that you want to lead with other, you know, with a partner. So, and it just kind of blew me away from the fact that like, I would go out in New York City till three in the morning, being cross eyed drunk, expecting to meet my partner that I wanted to have a life of, you know, quiet home cooked meals. Well, the, the, you know, the partner with cooking home cooked meals, it's not out at three in the morning at the car. They're at home making dinner, or they're already asleep. And if I want to live that kind of if I want to meet someone who's like that, I need to start living a life where I'm going to meet that kind of person. And that was such a ha moment for me, of, you know, oh, I want to, I want to meet someone, but I'm too busy with work, or I want to meet someone, but I don't really know what I want a partner. Or I want to meet someone, but I'm not going to cut down on my, you know, drinking and party. So we really have to check ourselves. I think dating is a amazing time to work on ourselves. Because we really want to see what we want. And a partner what we want ourselves. And what we, you know, it's one of those beautiful life coaching things like what do you see in five years for yourself? What do you want? Okay, how are we going to get there? Do you want to partner with a house upstate? How are you going to get that? How are you? You know, are you know, do you want to start dating people and move to New York City? Great, how are we going to do that? But it's a lot of self work. And so I think that that is the number one thing I encourage with clients of, you know, if we're going to kick off this, you know, maybe they just got a divorce or not just but you know, they they're out of a divorce or out of another relationship, and they're ready to kick back in, like, Okay, I'm ready. I'm like, Are you? Have you done this? You know, have you processed your divorce properly? Do you know what you want a partner, and let's go from there.

Coach Maddox  39:00  
You know, you said something really, really powerful a minute ago. And I want to backtrack, because I want to make sure the listeners are really getting this. I had an experience of my own many years ago, where, you know, you talked about being out drunk till 3am partying, but telling the universe or whatever higher power you believe in that you were ready and wanted a relationship. And I can recall a time in my life where I was telling the universe that I wanted a relationship, but I was out every weekend, you know, looking for that. What at the time we called one night stands now we call them hookups. And there was just this moment when I realized that I was sending mixing signals to the universe. Respond to me when I'm saying to, and I'm saying one thing, but doing another. I mean, that's really hard when we do Do that to another human being we say one thing we do another is equally as hard. I'm assuming for the universe, how can they support us and help us out when we're saying one thing and doing another? And so I think it's really important to call out here that this doesn't have to necessarily have to be about alcohol or sex, it can be about absolutely anything. You know, what is it that you're wanting? And then what is it that you're doing that sending completely a different message to the universe to the people around you to potential dates, what our boyfriends, whatever the that is?

Cator Sparks  40:41  
100%? I mean, I have so many my clients are like, I want a better lifestyle and work life balance. And I'm like, Okay, how late? Are you checking your emails? And they're like, well, until I go to bed, I said, wrong answer, you know, emails go down at five o'clock, because you have to take care of you, from five to 10, and maybe your wife or partner or kids and all of that, you know, you cannot keep working, you should not be expected to keep working till 10pm. And, and that can be an aha moment for people. And same with dating, like, if you're so worried that you're not going to, you know, do enough at work, and you're too busy with work and making this that maybe it's not the time for to date, maybe. And that's something I talked about to like, maybe this isn't the right time to date. And that's a beautiful time, when guys can say, you know, what, I don't really need to date right now. I'm good, I need to work on my career. And I need to work on you know, saving up my money, blah, blah, blah. So I want to get a new place, whatever it is. And maybe in six months or a year, I'll really be ready to date, I'll be more financially stable, I'll be better in my career. And I'm like, great, if that is where you are, I think that's beautiful than trying to say, well, I want to be the president of this company. But I also want to date but I don't have time and and then I meet girls or guys, and then they end up you know, not having time for them. And that's, you know, I've got so many clients on that end to have like, I went out with a great guy, but then he didn't have time for me. Exhausting.

Coach Maddox  42:07  
It is exhausting. And it's real hard to know, when you're ready. I look back now and can see I had a wife way back in the very beginning. Then over the years, I've had four separate male relationships. And in each of those times, I thought I was ready. But now at this time in my life, I look back and can clearly see how I wasn't ready for any of those. Right? Of course, the way they turned out demonstrated that, you know, and then I wonder, well, how do you know, when you're truly ready? I mean, I guess you know, what, what came about was well, when it when you're truly ready, he shows up. And, and it is good, you know, and it continues to be good and you continue to work, he continues to work on it. This is the first time I'm experiencing that. I'm in you know, now, if you add them all together male and female, I'm in serious relationship number six, you know, I'm running neck and neck with Liz Taylor. And this is the first one where I really can clearly now see yes. Because I have evidence that's revealing that I was ready, because it's really, really going really well. And even when it's not going well, it's going really well. Right. It's

Cator Sparks  43:43  
yeah. Beautiful. That's, that's, that's so great. And I think, you know, yes, one when we're ready, they will come. But also, I think what I always tell my clients is it's called dating. We're just dating. So you know, if it doesn't work out, you're learning something. And if you're dating this person for six months, or five years, whatever, we don't have to know if they're Mr. Right, which I hate that term. But if they're, you know, if they're a match for you, and then in the first week or the first month of the first year, you're just getting to know each other. And for those of us who aren't wanting kids, there's no time clock, you know, there's no rush. And if the rush is because society says you have to get married and live together and all that then you need to rethink, you know, what you're looking for and what's important to you.

Coach Maddox  44:39  
When I've come to believe that the rush is always being powered by some underlying desperation Yes. If you're in a rush, there's something driving that I you know, I can look back in my life clearly see the times of desperation.

Cator Sparks  45:04  
Right? Oh, me too. Me too. Oh,

Coach Maddox  45:06  
it desperation is so no attractive.

Cator Sparks  45:09  
No. Well, and we see, you know, and you know, when I was single, I always say, but oh my God, there's so and so's married, and so and so's dating, and so and so's, you know, and a lot of that time, I would focus on my straight friends. And what I remind our gay brothers is, is that we, most of us, came out later in life. And so not I mean, I was 18, which is still live, still later, because straight people kind of start being with, you know, dating, you know, and high school or middle school, and I didn't get any of that I didn't start. I didn't come out until college. And so we are a lot. We're a lot farther behind. And the way that we start forming relationships, understanding how relationships work, I mean, I think people who, you know, their moms, you know, when they were in second grade, we're like, wooden, Emily and Peter be cute together. And they start putting Emily and Peter together and not that anything's happening in second grade, but you get this kind of understanding, like, what relationships are in game, and we have none of that we're terrified at that age of like, Oh, please don't put me with Emily, unless we're playing Barbie, or whatever we're doing, because I don't think we're going to be doing anything and getting married, you know, in 20 years. And it's, we are on a lot of a very different path than straight people. And so I like to just remind, you know, the queer community that to give ourselves grace, you know, we, we were in the closet, that was scary, that was shameful, how long or short it was being in the closet. The really dating men, it does not happen for most of us until, you know, it happens later than it does for straight people. And, and then, you know, the politics and the shame, and the, you know, HIV and STDs and all of that jumbled together. There's a lot for gay men to process when we're dating. Are we on PrEP? Are we you know, monogamous, like all these things that there's there's just a lot that we have to process. Plus all the how high addiction runs in the gay community, you know, all things like that. It's, there's a lot on our plate. So to give ourselves grace and compassion when we're dating.

Coach Maddox  47:22  
One, I think that's the key to a better community as well, because we can't, we can't give grace to others until we can give it to ourselves. Right? Can our community can be really hard on each other? I mean, I've said most of my life, no one can treat gay man worse than another day, man. Right. And that is because if we can't give ourselves grace, we can't get it to. To others, when you find that grace in yourself, and it becomes so much easier, and we need it, we need grace for each other. And that's going to start at home, everything starts on the inside.

Cator Sparks  48:03  
Right? So 100%, you know, and I feel for those men, that you know, I guess we call them bitter queens who are just nasty, and you know, they love gossiping, and, you know, cutting people down and being mean, and I feel so much for them. And the older I get, the more I see how unhappy they are. You know, I used to be so hurt by men who would talk down to me and now I see them. I'm like, Oh, honey, bless your heart.

Coach Maddox  48:29  
The same way knowing just how much pain they must be in to treat being the way they treat. It's, it's really sad. It's really sad. Well, let's take a few moments to shift and move into some alternatives to the dating apps.

Cator Sparks  48:52  
Yes, yes, there's plenty and and that's an exciting place to go as well. I think even if you know to do again, doing in tandem with dating apps of finding, you know, I think a great place to start is like LGBTQ nonprofits in your area, like sign up, work at the gay thrift store, see who you meet, go to the food bank, go to the HIV clinic, like volunteer at some places like that and meet other like minded gay folks, because that is a great place to meet them. I often say like, you know, find the local find if there's a gay pickleball or gay yoga or, you know, gay circuit, that circuit, not circuit parties, what do you call it circuit training? You know, things like that. That is another way to meet community.

Coach Maddox  49:44  
I have a couple of friends. One is one is in I think just turned 50 and the other ones, maybe in his upper 50s. One of them plays softball, and is always doing something with the softball team. The other one plays, dodgeball, I believe, and is always doing something with the dodgeball team. And you know, they've stated it's not about skill at all, like, everybody on the team absolutely sucks. It's they don't come together for the sport, they come together, just to play and be together. And that they bought, I can't throw or catch worth a damn. Not that you need to. But you know, because they had the skills not there. But they seem to get a lot out of it, they seem to really enjoy it. And they continue each season to sign up and go again, I was actually working on a project of my own and making a list of and this wasn't just a gay thing, this would be for anybody that's wanting to build community or make more friends or find a partner. But I was making a list of all the very different things that you can do to put yourself in a fertile garden of opportunities. list is pretty much endless.

Cator Sparks  51:09  
True. Yeah. And there's a great website called meetup. And I've had clients have great success of like, looking up at meetup, like gay hiking groups in San Francisco, or, you know, you know, they have speeding speed dating events on there as well. But, you know, I had one client who really enjoyed the gay hiking groups and San Francisco and I had another client who did meet up in Southern California and really got something out of it, too. So, you know, there's a there are these other places, but really, you know, LGBTQ organizations are a great place to start. I mean, I live in small Charleston, South Carolina, and we have to, we are family and AFA, which are great nonprofits that you can easily become members of and, and start, you know, meeting other people, and also online gay men's groups. I mean, I work with every man I'd run the GBT Q, every group every Wednesday, it's open to the public. And you may not meet a partner there, because we're all spread across the nation. But it's a great way to find that community and talk about things like this. But also, hey, if you're in Boston, there could be someone else in Boston, and you might be able to meet up and meet people and meet new connections. So you really you never know.

Coach Maddox  52:18  
Well, and I've always been an advocate of if you can't find something to join and create something. Now, it's not rocket science, I pulled together three friends, this would have been maybe 2005. I pulled three friends together, and we started hosting parties in our homes. And each one of us would contribute 25% to whatever it costs to host the party. And each one of us would contribute 25% of the guest list. And we would have these big parties. And then we started. Like bringing them in this. We did it quarterly I think for a year. Sure. And then we realize that's not often enough. And so we started hosting Friday night happy hours in a local restaurant bar, and got big, actually. But there, there's just a lot you can do if you if you can't find it, create it.

Cator Sparks  53:22  
Beautiful. How did you let people know about these? Was it just word of mouth,

Coach Maddox  53:26  
word of mouth or originally and then we started using email as it started to grow. I think back then evite was the heavy hitter. Sure. And, you know, at its peak, we probably had many 250 people that were involved. Wow, we did all kinds of things. We'd have a monthly singles dinner, and we'd have a monthly couples dinner. We had a little spiritual study group, there was a yoga class that happened on Saturday mornings, we had a variety of things that evolved out of that it was a lot of work. And, you know, I learned a lot I would certainly, if I did it over do it somewhat differently. But yeah, you know, there's definitely people that are interested in that sort of thing. And sometimes you look at there isn't a lot out there when it comes to things like that. So yeah,

Cator Sparks  54:19  
yeah, churches a great place to I mean, any any, you know, LGBTQ friendly church would probably be, you know, a warm, inviting place to go and yeah, it's, there's, there's a church here that's, you know, 80% gay and it's a great place for people to go meet meet new gay folks, and you may not meet your partner there, but they might invite you to dinner and then there's someone at the dinner and you know, just how that kind of works organically as you know. But, you know, there's there's so many other ways to meet people. So I say do do both. But, you know, you have to put yourself out there you have to make the effort.

Coach Maddox  54:55  
Yes, absolutely. My partner and I started hosting little games. or is that our house shortly after we met, and we do almost one a month, we've done probably over a dozen now. And it's opened up avenues socially opened up. avenues. Professionally, it's been remarkable what has come about by just sending text messages. It's very informal text messages to people and say, here's the time and the place. And they come. And in a year, we created a pretty rich social life for ourselves.

Cator Sparks  55:34  
How beautiful, well done. And that's the that's the beauty of Yeah, putting yourself out there and doing those kinds of things. And that that can be so enriching for you and the community.

Coach Maddox  55:44  
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. When you do things like that, you're actually making a contribution. You know, it started off with us wanting to just expand our circle of friends and have more social opportunities. And then it we could very clearly see all of a sudden that we were providing something to all of the people that we were inviting. They were, they were having growth and expansion out of it. And that's a pretty cool thing to realize is unfolding.

Cator Sparks  56:11  
Yes, that's what I keep hearing from all the gay men I work with, as private clients are through every man is they just want community, you know, and we may not all go out to bars, and we may not all drink or watch drag races or all that, but you want something more, you know, more fulfilling, like, let's all have a dinner party together and connect or there's a gentleman here in Charleston, who's hosting a gay spiritual group, and a couple of weeks cocktail party at his house, which is fun, and you know, what a beautiful way to connect that is not just, you know, bars, because we get so pigeonholed into that's where gay people go. And if you're not a big drinker, or you don't stay out late, or you're at the bargains too loud, you know, it's just nice to have these other options. Whether it's yoga or you know, a dinner party at home or a nonprofit to meet up at. There's there's a lot of opportunity out there.

Coach Maddox  57:03  
Absolutely. Well, cater what what words of wisdom anything in particular that you'd like to say to any any GBT Q man that is considering maybe they haven't done that online dating thing? Or maybe they haven't they've had, you know, not such a pleasant experience. What is the number one, or two or three, whatever you want to do? You know, word of word of wisdom that you would say is, you know, really important.

Cator Sparks  57:38  
Yeah, I say you got to take care of yourself before you can take care of other people. As they say, on the airplane, you put on your mask before you put on someone else's mask. And you need to make sure you're in a good unhealthy place in your life before you start dating and bringing other people into that fold. Because you don't want to bring your drama into someone else's world, your problems, your issues, not that I'm saying you have to be perfect in plastic. But you want to be in a place where you can be vulnerable, and be able to share your feelings and experiences with someone else, where you don't snap and become angry. Because whatever happens, and so really taking care of yourself, whether it's through coaching and therapy, and you know, like I said, a healthy lifestyle. That's a great way to start when you're ready to date and because you want to meet someone else on that level.

Coach Maddox  58:30  
Absolutely. So I just want to say that one of the things that I've learned in my life is that we don't ever need to go it alone. We don't ever need to go it alone. And there's always value in having support when you take on anything that's new and challenging. So I just want the listeners to hear that caterers website and contact information will be in the show notes. This is what he does for a living is he coaches GBT Q men to have meaningful dating experiences and perhaps find that one special person that you're looking for, or you know, whatever it is you're looking for, that's not always necessarily the goal. It might be to find a perpetual list of playmates here, but this is what he specializes in and can certainly help you with that.

Cator Sparks  59:26  
Thank you so much. Yeah, and I will share that my my gay dating 101 course is it is a course that I designed. It's, I think seven or eight videos. And so you know, we don't even have to meet I would love to meet clients who take this I think it works in tandem with working with a life coach, but it's all online. They can click in by and watch all of the videos themselves and the clients who have watched them. I found them very beneficial and very helpful and then they reach out to me to help them develop their values list develop, like look at pictures and see what what's right and what To be changed, and so it's been a really beautiful unfolding watching people grow, you know, connected to themselves better and feeling better about their dating, you know, experience.

Coach Maddox  1:00:12  
It sounds like you're doing deeply rewarding work.

Cator Sparks  1:00:16  
This is why we do it and why we do it. Yes.

Coach Maddox  1:00:19  
So will they be able to find all that information about your coat course on your website?

Cator Sparks  1:00:24  
It's all right there. Yes. Perfect.

Coach Maddox  1:00:27  
Okay. Well, this has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you so much, cater for bringing your your heart and your expertise and your wisdom to the call and sharing it with the listeners. It's been an honor to speak to you today and and thank you

Cator Sparks  1:00:46  
antiemetics such a treat to be here. So thanks again.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai